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Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them?
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p_crazy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 i  feel  this  thread  going  a  bit  sour..
 i  think  nayak  intended  to  discourage  newbies  to  fall  for  the  "charms"  of  a  hybrid  and  unnatural  fish.it  doesnt  mean  people  who  have  or  love  flowerhorns  should  be  barred  from  posting  about  his/her  fish  ..isnt  it  so?
 
 I  for  one,hate  flowerhorns  and  other  unnatural  fishes,but  dont  mind  the  frequent  posts  about  them.its  a  public  forum  and  have  to  respect  the  individual's  choices.
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aquariumer
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
p_crazy  wrote  (View  Post):                
i  feel  this  thread  going  a  bit  sour..
 i  think  nayak  intended  to  discourage  newbies  to  fall  for  the  "charms"  of  a  hybrid  and  unnatural  fish.it  doesnt  mean  people  who  have  or  love  flowerhorns  should  be  barred  from  posting  about  his/her  fish  ..isnt  it  so?
 
 I  for  one,hate  flowerhorns  and  other  unnatural  fishes,but  dont  mind  the  frequent  posts  about  them.its  a  public  forum  and  have  to  respect  the  individual's  choices.                

 
 Yes  guys  I  think  nobody  as  commented  on  stopping  any  posts  on  any  hybrids.  I  feel  few  of  us  are  taking  it  personally.
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deepakg
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Water  pitbulls.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
TheChannaGuy  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                

 A  new  member  joins  this  forum,  causes  the  casualty  of  hardy  fishes  like  Arowana  and  Green  terror  and  he  is  being  bombarded  with  the  hype  about  a  Hybrid.  And  what  does  that  unsuspecting  soul  do?  He  wants  to  sell  his  beautiful  True  Cichlids  and  is  on  a  Hybrid  purchasing  spree!  And  the  Hybrid  promoters  never  even  bothered  to  warn  him  about  Aquarium  Nitrogen  cycling.  Real  responsible  promoting,  I  should  say  Sad                  

 
 Thank  you  for  replying  in  detail  sir.  Your  points  are  valid  and  are  taken.  your  thoughts  were  just  my  thoughts  till  a  month  back.  I  am  a  dedicated  native  fish  keeper  and  have  hated  and  refrained  from  keeping  hybrids  for  the  greater  part  of  the  last  decade.  But  I  have  this  one  flowerhorn  since  a  month  and  I  don't  know  how  long  it  will  take  me  to  overcome  him.  But  my  gut  feeling  is  that  he  is  here  to  stay.  but  I  respect  IAH  for  what  it  is  and  stands  for  and  the  word  of  the  admins  and  mods  is  law  here.  So,  I  myself  won't  corrupt  this  site  further  and  from  today  onwards,  I  won't  start  any  new,  update  any  old  or  reply  to  any  hybrid  thread.  I  will  keep  flowerhorns  though,  but  keep  that  part  of  my  hobby  to  myself.  Thank  you.                

 Thank  you  for  your  understanding.
 
 
                                                 
apuda2010  wrote  (View  Post):                

 I  think  there  are  two  seperate  issues  being  discussed  here.  One  is  newbies  and  oldies  succumbing  to  keeping  a  hybrid  ,  the  other  is  newbies  and  oldies  posting  their  love  about  hybrids  on  IAH.
 
 I  remember  not  so  long  ago  ,  a  topic  on  the  most  friendly  internet  sites  to  purchase  hobby  equipment  was  started  by  Abhida.  I  commented  (using  the  `should  not  voice  it  and  keep  mum'  policy  cited  by  Nayak  in  his  post)  on  some  websites  and  gave  my  personal  opinion.  I  was  struck  very  hard  on  the  knuckles  by  the  mod  -  there  is  no  place  for  personal  opinion  on  IAH  ,  state  facts  I  was  told.  I  wrote  to  the  mod  ,  stating  facts  ,  but  like  TheChannaGuy  ,  also  promised  in  the  same  thread  not  to  make  any  further  comments.
 
 Of  late  ,  Madan  ,  perhaps  the  most  mature  mod  in  my  view  ,  has  been  guiding  newbies  very  nicely  asking  them  to  refrain  from  the  very  same  sites  I  commented  upon.
 
 What  am  I  trying  to  prove  here  ?  Simple,  if  the  mods  feel  that  hybrids  should  not  form  part  of  forum  topics  on  IAH  because  as  a  responsible  site  IAH  should  not  encourage  hobbyists  to  keep  hybrids  ,  then  state  so  in  the  rules  of  posting  and  start  locking  discussions  on  hybrids.
 
 However  ,  it  is  incorrect  to  state  that  `we  bear'  hybrid  threads  because  a  flowerhorn  is  all  that  a  newbies  sees  in  an  LFS.  Really  ?  I  have  been  in  the  hobby  for  21  years  and  never  kept  a  flowerhorn.  If  you  allow  people  to  post  ,  they  will  post.
                 

 Apuda,  This  is  called  hijacking  a  thread.  But  never  mind  since  it  is  my  thread,
 Here  are  some  facts  for  you.  
 There  are  no  oldies(Senior  members)  posting  their  love  for  Hybrids  on  IAH.  Check  the  second  link  in  my  first  post.
 Ravi  is  the  Founder  and  System  Administrator  of  IAH  and  Madan  is  a  Administrator.  They  are  not  moderators.  And  carrying  over  the  discussion  of  a  separate  thread  of  different  topic,  into  a  new  one  is  never  a  good  practise.
 Madan  has  never  asked  anyone  to  refrain  purchasing  from  any  particular  sites.  He  has  simply  asked  the  hobbyists  to  avoid  on-line  purchase,  persay.
 Ever  thing  does  not  become  correct  automatically  once  we  add  new  rules.  IAH  depends  on  the  commonsense  and  consideration  of  it's  members  and  the  success  of  this  policy  by  the  Admins  speaks  volumes  about  it's  wisdom.
 21  years  back  here  were  no  Flowerhorns.  
 
 
 
                                                 
Rohit1076  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Well,  are  Hybrids  so  bad  that  IAH  can't  handle  them?
 I'm  having  Flowerhorns,  SA  Cichlids  &  African  as  well.....  I  pet  them  all  -  Alike.....
 I  respect  everyone  has  their  views  but  negating  a  species  just  because  you  don't  like  is  not  good.
                 

 "Hybrids  do  not  get  a  new  scientific  name,  in  other  words,  you  cannot  create  a  new  species  by  hybridization  in  your  fish  tank"
 Kindly  read  the  third  link  in  my  first  post!  And  form  an  informed  opinion  about  what  species  is  a  Flowerhorn.
 
 
                                                 
Rohit1076  wrote  (View  Post):                

 I  need  to  ask  seniors  &  veterans,  where  do  you  get  good  native  fishes  &  other  fishes  of  your  interest  for  any  amateur  who  wants  to  get  into  this  hobby  &  grow  as  a  Hobbyist?????
 I've  been  into  IAH  for  almost  6  moths  now....  I  like  the  forum  as  I  get  to  learn  about  the  pets  I  have.
 Well  if  FH  is  so  popular  in  forum  is  just  because  that's  the  fish  extensively  available  right  now  &  every  member  has  his  /  her  concerns  &  wants  to  share  them.
 Is  it  anything  wrong  in  it?????????                

 You  are  correct  in  stating  that  the  popularity  of  Hybrids  is  because  of  their  extensive  availability  and  due  to  the  unavailability  of  other  fishes  for  Newbies,  thereby  preventing  them  from  growing  in  the  hobby.
 There  is  a  solution  on  IAH,
 Kindly  go  through  the  sub-forum  of  the  fish  you  are  interested  in.  Say  if  it  is  Cichlid  sub-forum,  then  go  through  the  titles  of  posts  and  find  the  fish  that  interests  you.  Go  through  that  post,  contact  the  people  who  have  kept  them  and  ask  their  source.  All  through  pm's  or  E-mails,  please.
 You  can  even  contact  senior  members  and  ask  them  about  your  need.  They  will  gladly  help.
 
 
                                                 
aquariumer  wrote  (View  Post):                

                                                   
p_crazy  wrote  (View  Post):                
i  feel  this  thread  going  a  bit  sour..
 i  think  nayak  intended  to  discourage  newbies  to  fall  for  the  "charms"  of  a  hybrid  and  unnatural  fish.it  doesnt  mean  people  who  have  or  love  flowerhorns  should  be  barred  from  posting  about  his/her  fish  ..isnt  it  so?
 
 I  for  one,hate  flowerhorns  and  other  unnatural  fishes,but  dont  mind  the  frequent  posts  about  them.its  a  public  forum  and  have  to  respect  the  individual's  choices.                

 
 Yes  guys  I  think  nobody  as  commented  on  stopping  any  posts  on  any  hybrids.  I  feel  few  of  us  are  taking  it  personally.
                 

 No  such  thing,  Guys.   Smile  
 
 There  are  unbiased  checks  and  balances  on  IAH.  As  a  recent  post  by  Marc,  warning  native  keepers  illustrates.  Nothing  will  be  given  an  unbridled  reign!  For  a  couple  of  weeks  the  virtue  of  Hybrid  keeping  was  getting  highlighted  without  the  other  side  of  it  being  heard.  This  imbalance  was  getting  the  newbies  to  think  on  only  the  favourable  angle  of  it,  without  realizing  the  downside  and  peril.  Now  that  the  other  side  has  been  highlighted  read  and  form  your  own  opinion.  
 
 Happy  Fishkeeping,
 
 Regards,
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 I  really  dont  know  what  the  whole  fuss  is  about.
 
 If  one  reads  what  OP  has  posted  and  quoted,  one  will  know  why  Flowerhorns  are  to  be  avoided.  What  one  does  is  each  individuals  opinion  on  the  subject.  But  that  does  not  alter  the  facts.  No  one  here  has  pointed  to  a  member  and  said  'Your  fish  is  ugly'.
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saikumar
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Hi  Nayak,
 
 Can  we  get  this  post  stickied  on  Cichlid  forum?
 Just  thought  it  would  be  useful  note  to  many.  If  its  stickied  on  New-members  forum,  even  there  it  should  help.
 
 Thank  you.
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Ram_a_rosi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Well  well  Rohit,
 
 You  feel  that  the  issues  surrounding  the  FH/hybrids  is  not  of  a  big  concern.   But  have  you  just  thought  what  you  are  getting  into.  Do  you  know  how  big  would  it  get?  how  does  it  behave?  How  will  it  get  along  with  its  tank  mates?  What  the  Sex  of  the  FH/hybrids  is.  Ever  wondered  its  bloodline  has  Melanochromis  auratus  a  very  aggressive  fish  and  intolerant  of  others  in  its  territory  which  will  be  on  a  warpath  with  other  fishes  in  your  tank.
 
 
 There  is  lot  of  questions  that  will  crop  up  for  which  the  answers  will  be  quite  fateful.
 
 Ramdas
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Thanks  Nayak  for  leading  us  to  the  Vonkaiser  episode-a  welcome  breather  to  a  topic  gradually  taking  the  shape  of  a  script  to  a  X-Men  sequel-Mutants  v/s  .........!
 Though  we  expect  more  mesmerizing  wizardry  from  a  wordsmith  of  your  calibre  you  have  definitely  made  your  point.Well,  if  the  spirit  of  IAH  discourages  hybrids,what  better  way's  there  to  spread  the  message  than  simply  altering  the  forum  guidelines  to  ban  further  topics  pertaining  to  the  fishes  in  question?Furthermore  if  democracy  is  to  be  adhered  to,a  simple  poll  should  suffice  to  decide  whether  hybrids  deserve  their  place  in  this  community  or  not.
 If  morality  of  hybrid  keeping  is  to  be  put  under  the  scanner  then  probably  we  should  take  a  second  look  at  the  idea  of  aquarium  culture  as  a  whole!From  the  elite  hobby  of  marine  aquaria  to  the  much  appreciated  practice  of  collection  trips,everything  revolves  round  the  concept  of  tearing  away  pieces  of  nature  from  their  natural  habitat,confining  them  into  puny  glass  boxes  and  leaving  them  at  the  mercy  of  our  whims,knowledge,pocket  depths  or  even  powercuts!
 Released  irresponsibly  in  the  wild,I  fail  to  appreciate  how  differently  a  flowerhorn  would  adversely  affect  the  ecosystem  than  a  pair  of  convicts  (with  their  marvelous  reproductive  ability)  or  a  few  piranhas  (with  their  famed  aggression)  would.The  survival  chances  of  coral  reefs  are  taking  a  beating  partially  due  to  this  hobby  and  so  are  several  freshwater  habitats.If  we  can  afford  to  turn  our  backs  to  the  malpractices  and  breach  of  ethics  involved  with  pure  breeds  nowadays,then  why  single  out  the  hybrids?
 I  believe  it  is  high  time  the  backbones  of  IAH  take  a  tough  stand  in  this  regard  and  decide  once  and  for  all  about  the  future  status  of  hybrids  on  IAH!
 Let  hybrid  keepers  be  IN  or  OUT-and  not  somewhere  in  between!
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madhu_ulysses
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Joined: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 2450
Location: Salem, TN

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                

 If  morality  of  hybrid  keeping  is  to  be  put  under  the  scanner  then  probably  we  should  take  a  second  look  at  the  idea  of  aquarium  culture  as  a  whole!From  the  elite  hobby  of  marine  aquaria  to  the  much  appreciated  practice  of  collection  trips,everything  revolves  round  the  concept  of  tearing  away  pieces  of  nature  from  their  natural  habitat,confining  them  into  puny  glass  boxes  and  leaving  them  at  the  mercy  of  our  whims,knowledge,pocket  depths  or  even  powercuts!
                 

 I  never  had  marine  aquariums,  but  yes  have  been  collecting  for  almost  the  past  decade  or  so.   I've  been  holding  on  to  what  I  collect  for  years  and  I  don't  collect  what  I  can't  hold  on  to  and  I  know  a  lot  of  friends  who've  done  the  same.   With  proper  care  a  lot  of  FW  fishes  have  the  chance  of  surviving  happier  and  longer  in  captivity  than  in  the  wild.
 
 I  really  don't  think  the  intention  of  this  thread  is  to  ban  fh  lovers  or  tag  a  negative  band  on  them.   The  fact  is  very  simple.   Just  like  there  are  so  many  people  who  love  fhs,  there  are  others  who  consider  it  below  standard  to  talk  about  them.   I  for  one  would  definitely  appreciate  a  humble  maculatus  than  some  color  fish  that  was  packaged  in  some  random  farm  in  Thailand  or  Malaysia.   No  one  here  is  trying  to  say  "Step  outta  IAH  if  you  are  keeping  hybrids"  or  "Keeping  fh  is  a  sin".   For  a  few  of  us  its  something  similar  to  being  forced  to  watch  some  Ekta  Kapoor  Soap  after  watching  a  David  Attenburough  video.
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aquarius
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Joined: May 24, 2010
Posts: 546
Location: Kolkata

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote  (View  Post):                

 I  never  had  marine  aquariums,  but  yes  have  been  collecting  for  almost  the  past  decade  or  so.   I've  been  holding  on  to  what  I  collect  for  years  and  I  don't  collect  what  I  can't  hold  on  to  and  I  know  a  lot  of  friends  who've  done  the  same.   With  proper  care  a  lot  of  FW  fishes  have  the  chance  of  surviving  happier  and  longer  in  captivity  than  in  the  wild.                

 
 Not  everybody  has  the  wisdom,experience  or  responsibility  of  Mr  Madhusudan  or  Mr  Nayak!
 As  a  matter  of  fact,I  have  come  across  many  "please  ID  this  native"  threads  where  the  triumphant  catcher  does  not  even  know  the  nomenclature  of  the  captive  fish,leave  alone  in-depth  knowledge  of  the  natural  habitat  or  food  habits  of  the  fish  in  question!
 
 
                                                 
madhu_ulysses  wrote  (View  Post):                

 ;For  a  few  of  us  its  something  similar  to  being  forced  to  watch  some  Ekta  Kapoor  Soap  after  watching  a  David  Attenburough  video.
                 

 A  very  small  price  to  pay  Madhu,  to  keep  a  family  happy  and  running!  Smile
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rasikanayak
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Joined: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 2927
Location: Bangalore

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
aquarius  wrote  (View  Post):                
Thanks  Nayak  for  leading  us  to  the  Vonkaiser  episode-a  welcome  breather  to  a  topic  gradually  taking  the  shape  of  a  script  to  a  X-Men  sequel-Mutants  v/s  .........!
 Though  we  expect  more  mesmerizing  wizardry  from  a  wordsmith  of  your  calibre  you  have  definitely  made  your  point.Well,  if  the  spirit  of  IAH  discourages  hybrids,what  better  way's  there  to  spread  the  message  than  simply  altering  the  forum  guidelines  to  ban  further  topics  pertaining  to  the  fishes  in  question?Furthermore  if  democracy  is  to  be  adhered  to,a  simple  poll  should  suffice  to  decide  whether  hybrids  deserve  their  place  in  this  community  or  not.
 If  morality  of  hybrid  keeping  is  to  be  put  under  the  scanner  then  probably  we  should  take  a  second  look  at  the  idea  of  aquarium  culture  as  a  whole!From  the  elite  hobby  of  marine  aquaria  to  the  much  appreciated  practice  of  collection  trips,everything  revolves  round  the  concept  of  tearing  away  pieces  of  nature  from  their  natural  habitat,confining  them  into  puny  glass  boxes  and  leaving  them  at  the  mercy  of  our  whims,knowledge,pocket  depths  or  even  powercuts!
 Released  irresponsibly  in  the  wild,I  fail  to  appreciate  how  differently  a  flowerhorn  would  adversely  affect  the  ecosystem  than  a  pair  of  convicts  (with  their  marvelous  reproductive  ability)  or  a  few  piranhas  (with  their  famed  aggression)  would.The  survival  chances  of  coral  reefs  are  taking  a  beating  partially  due  to  this  hobby  and  so  are  several  freshwater  habitats.If  we  can  afford  to  turn  our  backs  to  the  malpractices  and  breach  of  ethics  involved  with  pure  breeds  nowadays,then  why  single  out  the  hybrids?
 I  believe  it  is  high  time  the  backbones  of  IAH  take  a  tough  stand  in  this  regard  and  decide  once  and  for  all  about  the  future  status  of  hybrids  on  IAH!
 Let  hybrid  keepers  be  IN  or  OUT-and  not  somewhere  in  between!                

 Your  wish  is  our  command  Bow  
 Points  noted  and  will  be  acted  upon  in  due  haste.
 
 Bringing  this  thread  to  a  conclusion,
 Thanks  to  all  for  taking  part  as  participants  or  spectators  in  these  discussions  Smile  
 
 Regards,
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random2
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Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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Location: 12° 18' 26” N 76° 38' 59'' E

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Swarnendu,
 
 No  one  here  is  trying  to  ban  fh  lovers.  Madhu  has  put  it  rightly.
 
 offtopic  -
 Regarding  other  topics  being  ethical,  you  can  always  discuss.  But  this  is  not  the  right  thread.
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Mridul
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Joined: Feb 16, 2010
Posts: 378
Location: Kolkata

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

                                                   
aquarius  wrote  (View  Post):                
Thanks  Nayak  for  leading  us  to  the  Vonkaiser  episode-a  welcome  breather  to  a  topic  gradually  taking  the  shape  of  a  script  to  a  X-Men  sequel-Mutants  v/s  .........!
 Though  we  expect  more  mesmerizing  wizardry  from  a  wordsmith  of  your  calibre  you  have  definitely  made  your  point.Well,  if  the  spirit  of  IAH  discourages  hybrids,what  better  way's  there  to  spread  the  message  than  simply  altering  the  forum  guidelines  to  ban  further  topics  pertaining  to  the  fishes  in  question?Furthermore  if  democracy  is  to  be  adhered  to,a  simple  poll  should  suffice  to  decide  whether  hybrids  deserve  their  place  in  this  community  or  not.
 If  morality  of  hybrid  keeping  is  to  be  put  under  the  scanner  then  probably  we  should  take  a  second  look  at  the  idea  of  aquarium  culture  as  a  whole!From  the  elite  hobby  of  marine  aquaria  to  the  much  appreciated  practice  of  collection  trips,everything  revolves  round  the  concept  of  tearing  away  pieces  of  nature  from  their  natural  habitat,confining  them  into  puny  glass  boxes  and  leaving  them  at  the  mercy  of  our  whims,knowledge,pocket  depths  or  even  powercuts!
 Released  irresponsibly  in  the  wild,I  fail  to  appreciate  how  differently  a  flowerhorn  would  adversely  affect  the  ecosystem  than  a  pair  of  convicts  (with  their  marvelous  reproductive  ability)  or  a  few  piranhas  (with  their  famed  aggression)  would.The  survival  chances  of  coral  reefs  are  taking  a  beating  partially  due  to  this  hobby  and  so  are  several  freshwater  habitats.If  we  can  afford  to  turn  our  backs  to  the  malpractices  and  breach  of  ethics  involved  with  pure  breeds  nowadays,then  why  single  out  the  hybrids?
 I  believe  it  is  high  time  the  backbones  of  IAH  take  a  tough  stand  in  this  regard  and  decide  once  and  for  all  about  the  future  status  of  hybrids  on  IAH!
 Let  hybrid  keepers  be  IN  or  OUT-and  not  somewhere  in  between!                

 
 I  agree  to  Swarnendu  completely.
 Being  an  FH  lover  myself  I  don't  recommend  others  to  start  keeping  hybrids.  If  someone  do  opt  for  that  choice  he/she  should  take  that  decision  as  a  responsible  hobbiest.  As  I  have  interests  in  natural  cichlids,  planted  tanks  as  well  as  other  freshwater  fishes  which  I  myself  posses  and  don't  distinguish  between  them  and  fhs,   will  keep  posting  on  those  threads.  In  my  long  years  of  fishkeeping  I'have  never  encountered  any  situation  when  I  thought  that  FHs  are  just  for  beginners.  As  for  availability  factor,  I  keep  FHs  when  a  very  few  people  even  knew  about  a  Flowerhorn.  They  were  not  this  famous  or  available  then.  From  now  onwards  I'm  not  going  to  post  any  reply  in  my  own  fh  threads  or  in  other  FH  related  threads  till  any  decision  is  taken  by  the  MODERATORS.
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Romi
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Joined: Nov 10, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 agree  to  disagree,  buddies.  The  debate  is  vast  and  tiring.  ...
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saikumar
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Joined: Jan 30, 2007
Posts: 2224
Location: HYD-is-good

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Unnatural Hybrids? Got stampeded into purchasing them? Reply with quote

 Other  side  of  the  trend.  I  felt  it  was  good  place  to  share.
 
 Click  here
 
 Thank  you
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