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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Fulvic Acid Chelates - alternative to useless Microsol B ?
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Fulvic Acid Chelates - alternative to useless Microsol B ?
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Madan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Rahul,  the  trouble  with  the  solution  you  mention  above,  brings  us  back  to  square  ONE.
 
 I  can  prepare  what  ever  Micronutrients  in  whatever  proportions,  I  have  done  it,  used  it  and  distributed  it  around,  but  it  is  a  lot  of  work.
 
 Cost  of  individual  components  is  prohibitive,  minimum  quantity  is  enormous,  mixing  it  is  a  pain  for  even  an  above  average  aquarist  with  a  good  grasp  of  Chemistry.  At  today's  rates  getting  the  micros  alone  will  cost  Rs.  8000/-  and  that  is  a  conservative  estimate.  I  paid  Rs.  156/-  for  500  ml  of  absolute  alcohol  yesterday,  this  used  to  cost  me  68/-  a  few  years  ago.  Ferrous  Sulphate  minimum  packaging  is  500  grams.  Cost  8  years  ago  was  Rs.  800/-  Today  ?
 How  much  Ferrous  Sulphate  do  you  use  for  one  liter  of  PMDD  =  15  gms  or  there  abouts,  I  need  to  dig  out  my  notes.  EDTA  Na  salt  minimum  packaging  500  gms,  cost  8  years  ago  again  Rs.  800/-,  You  need  seven  molecules  of  EDTA  per  cation  molecule  you  want  to  chelate.
 
 I  am  not  writing  this  to  discourage  anyone  from  trying,  but  ...  its'  the  truth.  I  for  one  hate  any  kind  of  commercial  product,  I  have  seen  Myxazin  bottle  being  emptied  of  almost  all  it's  contents  and  filled  with  water  meticulously.  Chuckle  
 
 I  guess  someone  will  have  to  market  our  own  rolled  micros  in  dry  form,  unless  a  commercial  alternative  is  found  which  by  the  way  and  I  agree  with  abhi  here  is  going  to  be  impossible.
 
 I  am  working  on  a  new  recipe  for  PMDD,  it  will  be  something  off  the  charts,  uncharted  territory,  but  I  can  possibly  ask  a  few  people  to  try  out  the  mix,  same  as  I  did  with  my  olden  days  Lab  rolled  stuff.  Testing  the  mix  in  multiple  tanks  under  multiple  tank  parameters  is  needed.
 
 I  will  keep  this  thread  updated.
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Rana
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Madan
 
 Fe-EDTA  is  ready  available.  It  is  also  availbale  in  100  gms  pack  size.  You  may  use  that.
 
 For  other  compoments  like  Zinc,  Molybdate,  Manganese  Copper  etc.  all  are  stable  in  a  in  normal  water  pH  range  of  7.0  to  8.0,  hence  need  not  be  chelated.
 
 However  Fe-EDTA  is  not  that  stable  in  soutuion  of  pH  greater  than  6.0.  Harder  the  water  more  unstable  it  is.
 
 What  we  can  do,  prepare  solution  of  Fe-EDTA  seperately  in  acidic  water  (You  will  see  no  precipitation)  and  other  components  in  another  solution.
 
 Right  now  I  am  using  my  own  concoction  in  this  way.
 
 Regards
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ArnabPDas
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

                                                   
Rana  wrote  (View  Post):                
Right  now  I  am  using  my  own  concoction  in  this  way.                

 
 Which  I  have  heard  a  lot  of  good  things  about  from  multiple  people  and  have  seen  it  as  well.  It's  a  green  colored  liquid  isn't  it?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Yes  Rana,  I  have  done  that,  I  have  also  chelated  Fe  with  DTPA  (Diethylene  triamine  pentaacetic  acid)  which  is  more  stable  than  EDTA,
 but  mixing  it  is  a  problem  when  I  am  not  around  and  my  wife  looks  after  the  tanks.
 
 Microsol  B  was  good  while  it  lasted.
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Rana
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Yes  Arnab,  you  are  right.  Is  is  a  green  color  liquid.  Color  is  added  seperately  as  a  safety  measure.  So  that  nobody  drinks  it.  
 
 Regards
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saadali
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 this  is  some  seriously  bad  news  for  us  planted  nuts,  looking  forward  for  a  breakthrough  in  this  frontier
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Manu1979
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 If  friends  here  are  thinking  of  taking  legal  action  against  Vardhaman,  I  can  assist  and  be  what  ever  help  I  can.  
 
 A  brief  synopsis:
 Under  Consumer  Protection  Act,
 
 "consumer"  means  any  person  buys  any  goods  for  a  consideration  which  has  been  paid   and  includes  any  user  of  such  goods  other  than  the  person  who  buys  such  goods  for  consideration  paid
 
 So  we  are  a  consumer  of  Vardhaman,
 
 "defect"  means  any  fault,  imperfection  or  shortcoming  in  the  quality,  quantity,  potency,  purity  or  standard  which  is  required  to  be  maintained  by  or  under  any  law  for  the  time  being  in  force  under  any  contract,  express  or  implied  or  as  is  claimed  by  the  trader  in  any  manner  whatsoever  in  relation  to  any  goods;
   
 "unfair  trade  practice"  means  a  trade  practice  which,  for  the  purpose  of  promoting  the  sale,  use  or  supply  of  any  goods  or  for  the  provision  of  any  service,  adopts  any  unfair  method  or  unfair  or  deceptive  practice  including  any  of  the  following  practices,  namely;—
 (1)     the  practice  of  making  any  statement,  whether  orally  or  in  writing  or  by  visible  representation  which,—
 (i)     falsely  represents  that  the  goods  are  of  a  particular  standard,  quality,  quantity,  grade,  composition,  style  or  model;
 (ii)   falsely  represents  that  the  services  are  of  a  particular  standard,  quality  or  grade;
 
 
 "complaint"  means  any  allegation  in  writing  made  by  a  complainant  that—  
 (i)               an  unfair  trade  practice  or  a  restrictive  trade  practice  has  been  adopted  by  any  trader  or  service  provider;
 (ii)              the  goods  bought  by  him  or  agreed  to  be  bought  by  him;  suffer  from  one  or  more  defects;
 
 Considering  the  above  definitions,  it  is  clear  that  in  case  if  the  amount  of  elements  stated  in  the  packet  of  microsol  is  not  what  is  found  is  lab  test,  there  is  both,  a  defective  good  and  an  unfair  trade  practise  on  behalf  of  Vardhaman.
 
 “manufacturer”  means  a  person  who—
 
 (i)     makes  or  manufactures  any  goods  or  part  thereof;  or
 
 (ii)     does  not  make  or  manufacture  any  goods  but  assembles  parts  thereof  made  or  manufactured  by  others;  or
 
 (iii)  puts  or  causes  to  be  put  his  own  mark  on  any  goods  made  or  manufactured  by  any  other  manufacturer;
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Manu1979
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 "trader"  in  relation  to  any  goods  means  a  person  who  sells  or  distributes  any  goods  for  sale  and  includes  the  manufacturer  thereof,  and  where  such  goods  are  sold  or  distributed  in  package  form,  includes  the  packer  thereof;
 
 Hence,  Vardhaman  is  a  manufacturer,  and  hence  a  dealer.  Infact,  we  can  sue  the  local  dealers  also  who  sell  microsol.  I  generally  array  manufacturer  as  well  as  the  local  dealer  as  a  party  in  complaint.
 
 
 A  complaint  has  to  be  instituted  in  a  District  Forum  within  the  local  limits  of  whose  jurisdiction,—
 (a)        the  opposite  party  or  each  of  the  opposite  parties,  where  there  are  more  than  one,  at  the  time  of  the  institution  of  the  complaint,  actually  and  voluntarily  resides  or  carries  on  business  or  has  a  branch  office  or  personally  works  for  gain,  or
 (b)        any  of  the  opposite  parties,  where  there  are  more  than  one,  at  the  time  of  the  institution  of  the  complaint,  actually  and  voluntarily  resides,  or  carries  on  business  or  has  a  branch  office,  or  personally  works  for  gain,  provided  that  in  such  case  either  the  permission  of  the  District  Forum  is  given,  or  the  opposite  parties  who  do  not  reside,  or  carry  on  business  or  have  a  branch  office,  or  personally  work  for  gain,  as  the  case  may  be,  acquiesce  in  such  institution;  or
 (c)        the  cause  of  action,  wholly  or  in  part,  arises
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Hence,  it  is  better  to  file  a  complaint  against  Vardhaman  as  well  as  the  local  seller,  else  we  will  have  to  file  the  complaint  the  the  place  where  Vardhamn's  registered  office  is  situated.
 
 If  the  complaint  alleges  a  defect  in  the  goods  which  cannot  be  determined  without  proper  analysis  or  test  of  the  goods,  the  District  Forum  has  to  obtain  a  sample  of  the  goods  from  the  complainant,  seal  it  and  authenticate  it  and  refer  the  sample  so  sealed  to  the  appropriate  laboratory  along  with  a  direction  that  such  laboratory  make  an  analysis  or  test,  whichever  may  be  necessary,  with  a  view  to  finding  out  whether  such  goods  suffer  from  any  defect  alleged  in  the  complaint  or  from  any  other  defect  and  to  report  its  findings  thereon  to  the  District  Forum.  However,     before  any  sample  of  the  goods  is  referred  to  any  appropriate  laboratory,  the  District  Forum  may  require  the  complainant  to  deposit  to  the  credit  of  the  Forum  such  fees  as  may  be  specified,  for  payment  to  the  appropriate  laboratory  for  carrying  out  the  necessary  analysis  or  test  in  relation  to  the  goods  in  question.  But,  in  order  to  establish  our  prima  facie  case,  we  will  have  to  submit  a  chemical  report  along  with  the  complaint  to  show  before  the  District  Forum  that  microsol  doesnot  have  the  amount  or  proportion  of  elements  given  on  the  packet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

                                                   
Madan  wrote  (View  Post):                
Cost  of  individual  components  is  prohibitive,  minimum  quantity  is  enormous,  mixing  it  is  a  pain  for  even  an  above  average  aquarist  with  a  good  grasp  of  Chemistry.  At  today's  rates  getting  the  micros  alone  will  cost  Rs.  8000/-  and  that  is  a  conservative  estimate.  I  paid  Rs.  156/-  for  500  ml  of  absolute  alcohol  yesterday,  this  used  to  cost  me  68/-  a  few  years  ago.  Ferrous  Sulphate  minimum  packaging  is  500  grams.  Cost  8  years  ago  was  Rs.  800/-  Today  ?
 How  much  Ferrous  Sulphate  do  you  use  for  one  liter  of  PMDD  =  15  gms  or  there  abouts,  I  need  to  dig  out  my  notes.  EDTA  Na  salt  minimum  packaging  500  gms,  cost  8  years  ago  again  Rs.  800/-,  You  need  seven  molecules  of  EDTA  per  cation  molecule  you  want  to  chelate.
                 

 
 Are  these  lab  grade  materials  ?  If  so,  commercial  or  agricultural  grade  will  cost  substantially  less.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 i  feel  on  this  thread  which  should  solely  focus  on  finding  an  alternative  to  Microsol  b  rather  than  discussing  on  all  sorts  of  legal  action  that  can  be  taken....  no  offense  meant   Smile   but  we  are  hobbist  and  not  legal  activist's  
 
 a  pound  of  CSM  +B  costs  12  $  and  another  14$  to  ship  it  hence  the  cost  of  100  gms  would  be  6  $  appx  which  is  not  too  high   assuming  the  quality  is  good,  wanted  to  know  if  any  one  on  this  forum  used  it
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Essabee,  there  is  an  element  of  risk  to  our  livestock  in  every  DIY  venture.  Microsol-B  is  not  designed  for  aquaria,  either.  WRT  the  case  on  hand,  you  can  reduce  the  concentration  of  copper  sulphate  or  omit  it,  if  you  are  concerned  about  the  well  being  of  your  inverts.
 
 Madan,  I  do  not  quite  agree  with  your  points.
 
 a)  If  ease  of  use  and  peace  of  mind  are  what  people  are  after,  they  are  better  off  spending  a  few  hundred  rupees  more  and  getting  the  good  stuff  from  abroad  (or  using  one  of  the  many  aquarium  ferts  available  in  the  market  in  India).
 
 
 b)  As  you've  pointed  out,  you  only  need  small  quantities  of  the  various  chemicals,  so  you  can  either  do  a  group  buy  with  a  couple  of  dozen  other  hobbyists  or  ask  someone  with  access  to  a  chemistry  or  water  quality  lab  to  donate  a  few  grams  to  the  cause.  
 
 Rounding  off  your  estimate  to  10k  for  chemicals,  adding  another  10k  for  an  electronic  balance  accurate  to  0.01  g  (I  called  and  checked  the  price)  and  another  10k  for  quality  graduated  glassware  gives  you  30k  in  initial  costs.
 
 This  could  be  split  30  ways  (or  more)  to  provide  everyone  with  nutrient  mix  for  the  cost  of  a  dinner  at  a  moderately  upscale  restaurant.
 
 Even  if  the  experiment  turns  out  to  be  a  complete  disaster,  you're  not  out  a  lot  of  money,  and  the  equipment  can  be  retained  for  future  experiments.
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arvindshetty
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Are  you  sure  that  microsol  B  is  dubious?Couldn't   it   be  a  case  that  the  sample  tested  may  be  from  a  bad  stock?
 And  why  not  contact  Vardhaman  fertilizers  and  inform  them  that  their  product  quality  is  getting  deteriorated.And  it  could  effect  their  market  value.
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Possible  source  for  chelated  micronutrients:
 
 1.  BHAGYANAGAR  LABORATORIES
 S-12,EEIE,
 PHASE-2,  BALANAGAR  
 HYDERABAD-500037  
 
 Tel:   91-40-23078309
 
 
 2.  ARIES  AGRO
 8-B,  Attibele  Industrial  Area,
 Hosur  Main  Road,  Attibele,  
 Banglore-562  107,  
 
 Tel.:  +91  80  7820623
 
 H.O.  Tel:  +91  22  25564052  /  53
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random2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Any alternative to the useless Microsol B ? Reply with quote

 Couple  of  links  I  found  while  searching  -
 http://www.gsfclimited.com/micromix.asp?mnuid=3
 http://www.swaroopagro.com/fertilizers.html
 
 Not  sure  how  useful  this  link  is,  but  maybe  relevant  -
 http://www.imma.co.in/index.htm
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