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Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow

 
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natbox
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:52 am Post subject: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 A  few  questions  
 1)  Does  ammonia/nitrates/nitrates  build  up  in  the  bottom  of  the  aquarium.i.e.,  over  the  substrate?
 2)if  yes,  then  directing  water  flow  over  the  substrate   might  help  in  decreasing  the  toxic  build  up  by  helping  the  ammonia/nitrates/nitrites  dissipate  into  the  air(yes/no)?
 3)  nitrates  and  nitrites  are  worked  upon  by  bacteria  to  convert  them  into  ammonia  which  is  then  released  into  the  air  (yes/no)?
 4)  what  else  can  be  done  to  aid  the  bacteria  in  removing  as  much  ammonia/nitrates/nitrites?
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mudjawd
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 1.  nope.  but  as  the  poop,  dead  matters  and  food  settle  at  the  bottom  it  does  rot  in  the  gravel  but  it  affects  the  water  quality  overall.  that  is  why  you  use  the  water  from  any  part  of  the  tank  to  get  the  reading  of  the  levels  of  ammonia  etc.
 
 2.  no  clue  as  to  what  effects  the  directing  of  power  head  to  the  filter  will  have.  
 
 3.  i  guess  it  was  ammonia->  nitrites->nitrates.  
 it  happens  that  the  fish  poops  and  pees  and  it  has   nitrogen  which  breaks  into  ammonia.  as  ammonia  can  be  dissolved  with  water  completely  it  keeps  on  dissolving  with  water  and  the  water  quality  degrades.  also  note  that  ammonia  can  dissolve  in  water  to  a  very  large  extent(every  compound  which  is  soluble  in  water  has  a  limit  to  which  it  can  be  dissolved,  example  would  be  that  you  cannot  dissolve  as  much  sugar  as  you  want  in  a  glass  of  water).  but  ammonia  can  really  mix  in  real  great  proportions  and  also  if  you  have  more  fish  then  more  ammonia  dissolved  in  water  and  hence  deterioration  of  water  quality).  also,  note  that  the  bacteria  do  convert  ammonia  to  nitrite  and  then  to  nitrate  but  there  is  a  limit  to  which  the  poor  bacteria  can  handle.  and  if  over  burdened  they  die  and  further  conversion  is  not  possible.  this  causes  ammonia  spike.
 
 4.  the  bacteria  needs  more  oxygen,  a  rather  decent  water  flow  (through  filters)  as  the  bacterias  rest  there  in  large  numbers,  also  more  filter  surface  area  means  more  area  for  bacteria  to  sit  down  and  do  the  work.  overall  high  oxygen  content  and  a  not  so  dirty  water  or  a  rather  normal  fish  load  keeps  the  bacteria  in  good  conditions.
 
 experienced  guys  kindly  correct  me  if  i  went  wrong  somewhere
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natbox
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 i  had  forgot  where  i  posted  my  post  (found  it  now)   Smile  
 
 I  used  to  have  a  top  filter(DIY)  with  a  sponge(the  one  we  get  along  with  new  shirts)  as  the  filtering  media.The  idea  was  that  the  entire  length  of  sponge(almost  1  and  half  feet)  would  provide  greater  surface  area  for  the  bacteria  to  colonize  as  well  as  provide  it  with  enough  oxygen(right/wrong).
 But  i  had  some  issues  with  hair  algae  also  growing  on  the  sponges  which  in  turn  reflected  inside  the  tank.
 
 
 1)  The  rotting  vegetation  and  poop  are  the  basic  reasons  for  ammonia,  so  the  concentration  must  be  higher  near  the  substrate  right?  So  removing/siphoning  dead  matter/poop  every  other  day  and  improving  circulation  over  the  substrate  might  help  the  bacteria  convert  ammonia  more  effectively  (right/wrong)?
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gremlin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
The  rotting  vegetation  and  poop  are  the  basic  reasons  for  ammonia,  so  the  concentration  must  be  higher  near  the  substrate  right?  So  removing/siphoning  dead  matter/poop  every  other  day  and  improving  circulation  over  the  substrate  might  help  the  bacteria  convert  ammonia  more  effectively  (right/wrong)?                
 
 
 YOu  are  partially  right.  Having  good  flow  will  prevent  detrus  build  up  in  your  rocks  and  sand  and  will  keep  the  particles  suspended  and  can  be  removed  by  filter  socks  or  skimmer.  
 
 I  dont  know  if  circulation  will  help  the  bacteria  to  convert  the  ammonia  effectively.
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ramsarma1972
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 My  understanding  is  that  the  decomposing  material  &  fish  poop  are  the  main  sources  of  ammonia  in  a  tank.  Yes,  by  removal  of  waste  food  we  can  try  to  slacken  the  pace  of  degradation  of  water.  The  ammonia  dissolved  in  water  is  converted  to  nitrites  and  then  into  nitrates  by  bacterial  action.  It  is  my  understanding  that  the  nitrites  and  nitrates  remain  in  a  dissolved  state  in  the  water  itself.
 
 Therefore  i  am  not  sure  if  increased  water  flow  will  help  reduction  of  ammonia,  nitrites  or  nitrates,  common  sense  tells  me  it  will  not  help  but  i  am  subject  to  correction.
 
 What  i  am  sure  of  is  that  nitrites  are  converted  to  nitrates  and  the  nitrates  remain  dissolved  in  the  water.  The  nitrates  are  removed  through  water  changes  and  maybe  some  of  it  gets  converted  when  diatoms  and  brown  algae  cover  the  tank  glass.  My  understanding  is  that  the  process  of  conversion  of  ammonia  to  nitrites  and  nitrates  in  a  marine  aquarium  is  an  irreversable  reaction,  i.e.  we  cannot  get  the  nitrates  in  the  tank  to  release  ammonia  into  the  atmosphere.  
 
 I  guess  giving  the  tank  time  to  settle  down  by  itself  is  the  best  thing  we  can  do  in  the  process  of  ageing.  I  guess  the  next  best  thing  could  be  not  to  increase  the  number  of  fishes  and  to  not  increase  the  bio  load  in  a  tank  during  the  process.
 
 Additives  for  bacterial  action,  ammonia  convertion  to  nitrites  and  nitrates  are  all  available.  I  have  used  them  and  have  found  them  to  be  useful  to  serve  the  limited  purpose.  I  am  not  sure  if  these  will  have  any  other  implications  on  the  live  rock  in  the  tank!!!
 
 Yes  hair  algae  is  a  problem  but  then  its  all  part  of  the  game.  What  i  did  was  that  i  did  not  let  it  bother  me  during  the  initial  stages.  The  algae  will  become  food  at  a  later  stage  for  some  fishes  in  the  tank.  The  hair  algae  can  very  effectively  be  removed  by  some  fishes.
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

                                                   
mudjawd  wrote  (View  Post):                
1.  nope.  but  as  the  poop,  dead  matters  and  food  settle  at  the  bottom  it  does  rot  in  the  gravel  but  it  affects  the  water  quality  overall.  that  is  why  you  use  the  water  from  any  part  of  the  tank  to  get  the  reading  of  the  levels  of  ammonia  etc.
 
 2.  no  clue  as  to  what  effects  the  directing  of  power  head  to  the  filter  will  have.  
 
 3.  i  guess  it  was  ammonia->  nitrites->nitrates.  
 it  happens  that  the  fish  poops  and  pees  and  it  has  ┬ánitrogen  which  breaks  into  ammonia.  as  ammonia  can  be  dissolved  with  water  completely  it  keeps  on  dissolving  with  water  and  the  water  quality  degrades.  also  note  that  ammonia  can  dissolve  in  water  to  a  very  large  extent(every  compound  which  is  soluble  in  water  has  a  limit  to  which  it  can  be  dissolved,  example  would  be  that  you  cannot  dissolve  as  much  sugar  as  you  want  in  a  glass  of  water).  but  ammonia  can  really  mix  in  real  great  proportions  and  also  if  you  have  more  fish  then  more  ammonia  dissolved  in  water  and  hence  deterioration  of  water  quality).  also,  note  that  the  bacteria  do  convert  ammonia  to  nitrite  and  then  to  nitrate  but  there  is  a  limit  to  which  the  poor  bacteria  can  handle.  and  if  over  burdened  they  die  and  further  conversion  is  not  possible.  this  causes  ammonia  spike.
 
 4.  the  bacteria  needs  more  oxygen,  a  rather  decent  water  flow  (through  filters)  as  the  bacterias  rest  there  in  large  numbers,  also  more  filter  surface  area  means  more  area  for  bacteria  to  sit  down  and  do  the  work.  overall  high  oxygen  content  and  a  not  so  dirty  water  or  a  rather  normal  fish  load  keeps  the  bacteria  in  good  conditions.
 
 experienced  guys  kindly  correct  me  if  i  went  wrong  somewhere                

 
 
 THIS  IS  THE  BEST  EXPLANATION  AND  GUIDANCE  I  HAVE  READ  ON  IAH  TILL  NOW.  Smile  
 
 
 NOW....  tell  us  in  same  language,  how  to  TRAP  ammonia,  give  a  DIY  and  without  adding  chemicals,  a  very  natural  method......
 
 CAN  YA?
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Deepak267
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 I  think  Ali  Muddassir   did  a  good  job  in  explaining  it..  
 
 Here  is  my  comment.  
 
 1.  Does  ammonia/nitrates/nitrates  build  up  in  the  bottom  of  the  aquarium.i.e.,  over  the  substrate?
 
 Ans:  No,  it  always  affect  the  complete  tank.
 
 2)if  yes,  then  directing  water  flow  over  the  substrate   might  help  in  decreasing  the  toxic  build  up  by  helping  the  ammonia/nitrates/nitrites  dissipate  into  the  air(yes/no)?
 
 Ans  :  No,  the  only  difference  it  will  make  is,  it  will  move  the  dirt/aquarium  waste  to  a  different  part  of  the  tank.  
 
 
 3)  nitrates  and  nitrites  are  worked  upon  by  bacteria  to  convert  them  into  ammonia  which  is  then  released  into  the  air  (yes/no)?
 
 Ans  :  No,  it  goes  like  this
 aquarium  waste  -->  Ammonia  -->  Nitrite  -->  Nitrate  -->  consumed  by  plant
 
 Please  note,  there  is  a  limit  on  how  much  nitrate  can  be  consumed  by  the  plants.  That's  the  reason  why  wee  need  regular  partial  water  change.  
 
 4)  what  else  can  be  done  to  aid  the  bacteria  in  removing  as  much  ammonia/nitrates/nitrites?
 
 few  things:  
 a.  Keep  some  plants  (if  your  aquarium  species  allows  them)
 b.  keep  a  bog  wood  /  drift  wood
 c.  maintain  the  filter  media  (to  maintain  a  healthy  bacteria  colony)
 4.  remove  any  dead  plants  regularly
 5.  remove  as  much  fish  waste  as  you  can  during  your  water  change
 
 I  have  explained  this  in  my  article  on  "New  Tank  Syndrome  &  Aquarium  (Nitrogen)  Cycling".  
 http://aquariumhomecare.com/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=7
 
 Hope  you  will  find  it  useful.  
 
 
 Good  Luck
 
 Deepak
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ramsarma1972
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 I  stand  corrected  on  my  statement  "  My  understanding  is  that  the  process  of  conversion  of  ammonia  to  nitrites  and  nitrates  in  a  marine  aquarium  is  an  irreversable  reaction,  i.e.  we  cannot  get  the  nitrates  in  the  tank  to  release  ammonia  into  the  atmosphere."
 
 It  would  appear  that  the  bacteria  in  anerobic  conditions  (  inside  the  Live  Rock  /  or  deep  end  of  the  DSB)  through  a  reduction  process  absorb  the  oxygen  from  the  nitrates  and  this  process  releases  nitrogen  into  the  water  and  if  the  water  is  already  saturated  with  nitrogen  then  the  gas  is  released  into  the  atmosphere.   
 
 Therefore  the  more  liverock  with  bacteria  in  anerobic  spots  or   an  effective  DSB  will  breakup  the  nitrates  into  oxygen  and  nitrogen  that  will  eventually  be  released  into  the  atmosphere.
 
 The  topic  is  posted  in  a  Marine  Forum  and  so  this  reply.
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vidhyasagar99
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 i  agree  with  u  all,  everybody  has  got  some  nice  veiws  and  correct,nice  study  guys,  for  more  simpler  and  detailed  review  go  through  10  th  standard  or  puc  2nd  year  biology  books,fish  poo  or  plant  wastes  to  nitrites  to  nitrates  to  plant  food  thats  all,  substrate  and  filter  sponge  is  where  bacteria  live.
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natbox
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 i  guess  the  mods  moved  it  to  marine     Chuckle   but  i  still  have  a  long  way  to  go  marine
 i  just  wanted  to  clear  a  few  details,  thanks  for  the  reply  guys.
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

                                                   
Deepak267  wrote  (View  Post):                

 
 3)  nitrates  and  nitrites  are  worked  upon  by  bacteria  to  convert  them  into  ammonia  which  is  then  released  into  the  air  (yes/no)?
 
 Ans  :  No,  it  goes  like  this
 aquarium  waste  -->  Ammonia  -->  Nitrite  -->  Nitrate  -->  consumed  by  plant
 
 Please  note,  there  is  a  limit  on  how  much  nitrate  can  be  consumed  by  the  plants.  That's  the  reason  why  wee  need  regular  partial  water  change.  
 
 4)  what  else  can  be  done  to  aid  the  bacteria  in  removing  as  much  ammonia/nitrates/nitrites?
 
 few  things:  
 a.  Keep  some  plants  (if  your  aquarium  species  allows  them)
 b.  keep  a  bog  wood  /  drift  wood
 c.  maintain  the  filter  media  (to  maintain  a  healthy  bacteria  colony)
 4.  remove  any  dead  plants  regularly
 5.  remove  as  much  fish  waste  as  you  can  during  your  water  change
 
 Deepak                

 
 Thank  you  Bow
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and water flow Reply with quote

 Any  decaying  waste  gives  out  ammonia  which  is  acted  upon  by  Nitrosomnas  giving  nitrates  which  in  turn  is  consumed  by  Nitrobactor  turning  it  out  into  nitrates.   Its  these  bacteria  that  break  down  organic  waste  to  mulm.   Both  being  aerobic,  they  need  O2  to  stay  alive  and  the  population  doubling  time  for  both  bacteria  is  around  8  hrs  and  they  will  invariably  colonize  any  surface  including  filter  media,  substrate,  algae,  walls  of  the  aquarium  and  even  water  column.   Its  not  that  they  can't  handle,  but  you  should  allow  a  healthy  population  to  stay  alive  in  the  tank.   A  balanced  tank,  which  is  of  course  not  over  populated,  with  a  decent  filter/flow  provided  with  weekly  WCs  is  all  that  is  required.
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