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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Coal as substrate?
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Coal as substrate?
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Madan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:39 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Nayak,
 
 That  image  is  crosslinked  here  from  another  website.  There  will  not  be  any  copyright  issues  for  IAH.  And  there  is  an  obvious  disclaimer  regarding  ownership.
 
 Many  websites  do  not  allow  crosslinking  of  images  for  obvious  reasons.
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Madan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:50 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
elaine  wrote:                
                                                 
Quote:                
one  could  also  use  black  chipped  marble  as  substrate  for  the  same  effect...  
 
                 

 
 Won't  the  marble  make  the  water  hard  ?Would  it  be  suitable  for  a  planted  aquarium?Will  coal  be  alright  as  a  substrate  for  plants?if  it  is  okay  it  would  really  look  good
 
 Elaine                

 
 Marble  chips  will  make  the  water  hard.  Especially  with  CO2  injection  in  a  planted  tank.  We  look  up  for  calcium  free  gravel  to  setup  a  planted  tank.
 
 It's  the  same  weak  acid  (  lime  juice)  -  stained  marble  trouble.
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harsh
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:20 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 No  i'm  not  sure  of  it  being  copyrighted  or  not.    Innocent  
 what'll  happen  anyway,  if  it  was.
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dr_mozart
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 if  u  r  looking  for  black  substrate....try  those  finely  crushed  stones(like  the  ones  used  in  concrete)....i  think  its  available  at  every  LFS....looks  amazing......  btw  wont  coal  float  in  water???
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joyban
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  All,
 
 When  I  meant  black  marble  chips  I  actually  meant  black  stone  chips  which  are  often  used  on  flooring  in  the  house  ...,  any  way  if  you  use  a  very  thin  layer  just  to  cover  the  substrate  on  the  top,  will  it  still  contribute  to  the  water  being  hard...?
 
 http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/images/large/12639_LRG.jpg  
 Hagen  Product  
 
 APD  Links
 Searching  for  "coal  substrate"
 
 Re:  Coal  as  a  substrate
 Relevance:  100%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  4  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00554.html
 
 
 Re:  Aquatic  Plants  Digest  V6  #162  Using  Coal  Slag  as  a  Substrate
 Relevance:  96%;  Modified:  5/19/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200305/msg00299.html
 
 
 [APD]  Coal  Substrate
 Relevance:  95%;  Modified:  2/26/2006;  Size:  4  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200602/msg00525.html
 
 Using  Coal  Slag  as  a  Substrate
 Relevance:  94%;  Modified:  5/20/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200305/msg00286.html
 
 Re:  Using  Coal  Slag  as  a  Substrate
 Relevance:  94%;  Modified:  5/19/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200305/msg00303.html
 
 Re:  Coal
 Relevance:  56%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00558.html
 
 Re:  Dark  Substrate,  Estes  gravel
 Relevance:  56%;  Modified:  4/18/2003;  Size:  6  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.200207/msg00220.html
 
 
 Coal/balck  substrates
 Relevance:  56%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00565.html
 
 Coal/balck  substrates
 Relevance:  56%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00566.html
 
 Re:  Dark  Substrate,  Estes  gravel
 Relevance:  55%;  Modified:  4/18/2003;  Size:  4  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.200207/msg00224.html
 
 Re:  Dark  Substrate,  Estes  gravel
 Relevance:  55%;  Modified:  4/18/2003;  Size:  5  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.200207/msg00218.html
 
 re:  coal
 Relevance:  53%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00555.html
 
 
 Re:  Substrates  (Coal?)
 Relevance:  53%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00546.html
 
 Re:  coal  and  black  substrates
 Relevance:  53%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00568.html
 
 Substrates  (Coal?)
 Relevance:  52%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9703/msg00531.html
 
 Re:  Leonardite
 Relevance:  11%;  Modified:  4/17/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200303/msg00122.html
 
 Re:  Leonardite
 Relevance:  11%;  Modified:  4/17/2003;  Size:  3  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200303/msg00122.html
 
 [APD]  RE:Black  Turface
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  2/24/2004;  Size:  5  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200402/msg00436.html
 
 Profile  and  dolomite  usage
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  5/19/2003;  Size:  4  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200305/msg00289.html
 
 Re:  Substrates  -  charcoal/carbon
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  2  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9506/msg00196.html
 
 [APD]  Hagen  Geo-system  gravel
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  11/15/2004;  Size:  5  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200411/msg00155.html
 
 Re:  [APD]  RE:  lignite/DIY  fertiplant/Eco  complete
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  2/23/2004;  Size:  6  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200402/msg00420.html
 
 Profile  Plat  Soil/Black  Magic  Sandblasting  Sand  ??
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  4/16/2003;  Size:  4  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9704/msg00182.html
 
 [Killietalk]  Peat
 Relevance:  10%;  Modified:  8/17/2004;  Size:  9  Kbytes
 http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.200408/msg00171.html
 
 Hope  this  should  give  considerable  information  of  having  a  black  substrate  specially  with  use  of  coal.
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Madan  wrote:                
That  book  was  written  in  the  70's,  early  80s  right  or  am  I  seriously  mistaken.                

 Hi  Madan
 The  book  is  2003  edition
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
dr_mozart  wrote:                
if  u  r  looking  for  black  substrate....try  those  finely  crushed  stones(like  the  ones  used  in  concrete                

 I  think  this  is  what  sujoy  has  suggested.
 
                                                 
Quote:                
)btw  wont  coal  float  in  water???                

 I  am  trying  to  check  it  today
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 There  seem  to  be  two  type  of  coal  available,  mined  coal  or  "patthar  ka  koala"  or  charcoal  "lakri  ka  koala".
 Which  would  be  more  appropiate?  Mined  coal  is  my  choice,it  might  sink  better.
 Chemically  both  are  same  only  charcoal  seems  to  be  more  porous.
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nishantvats
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Had  posted  a  similar  query,  a  few  days  back,  regarding  the  choices  one  has  when  it  comes  to  dark  (nearly  black/truly  black)  substrates.  The  colour  it  seems  would  be  the  only  motivation  for  coal  as  a  substrate  (haven't  come  across  any  significant  advantage  in  terms  of  growth  promotion,  etc).
 
 So  if  not  coal,  what  alternatives  do  we  have  in  India.  Somebody  linked  a  commercial  Hagen  product  -  "Geo  System".  Is  it  available  in  India?  If  so,  where?  IMO,  it  doesn't  make  any  sense  to  import  substrates  as  individuals,  considering  the  fact  that  it  takes  almost  10  kgs  to  build  up  the  substrate  for  a  24"  tank!  The  shipping  costs  would  exceed  the  cost  of  the  substrate  itself!
 
 If  somebody  has  used  black  substrates  in  India...  please  please  do  help  out  with  the  sourcing  of  the  same!
 
   Sad
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vkv
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 How  about  the  basalt  rocks  found  in  the  Deccan  plateau.  Maybe  some  powdered  lava  rock  like  that  can  give  a  good  effect.
 
 Use  the  black  construction  sand  (reti)  used  in  Mumbai  for  the  base  substrate  and  lava  rock  on  the  top.  It  may  be  hard  on  bottom  feeders  but  will  probably  look  good.(and  dirt  cheap  -literally    Thumbs Up    )
 
 The  construction  sand  itself  looks  good  as  a  substrate  and  you  will  get  it  in  all  sizes.
 
 I'm  using  it  right  now  in  a  1  foot  tank  for  glosso  and  Echinodorus.  It  really  helps  in  holding  theroots.  Makes  it  very  easy  to  plant  as  well...
 
 
 Regards,
 Venkat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Thanks  Sandeep  regarding  the  book.
 I'll  look  up  on  it.
 
 Venket,
 
 Basalt  rock  or  lava  rock  is  what  I  had  in  mind  for  a  long  time,  the  problem  is  availability.  I  was  informed  that  I'd  need  to  order  a  truck  load,  15  tons.
 
 It  cannot  be  sourced  here  in  smaller  quantities.  I  would  have  preferred  crushed  lava  rock,  and  I  am  still  looking  out  for  a  source  that  can  ship  100  -  200  kgs.
 
 Hmmmmm.......  well.......
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Black  construction  sand!  Bingo!!  
 Cheering  
 Thanks  Venkat...  that's  the  answer  I  guess,  and  as  you  said,  I  don't  think  lava  rock  is  a  great  option  for  the  bottom  feeders!  All  you  guys  considering  coal  as  an  option...  with  all  the  ifs  and  buts  regarding  its  usage,  won't  it  be  much  better  to  use  the  sand  instead  (except,  of  course,  if  you  are  keen  on  having  large  particle  size  that  is  closer  to  pebbles  than  gravel)?  Do  keep  us  posted  on  how  the  "sink  test"  went,  and  once  you  have  the  experience...  the  long  term  usability,  impact  on  plant  growth,  and  whether  the  bottom  feeders  are  ending  up  with  black  mouths  :p)
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vkv
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Nishant,
 
 The  reason  I  suggested  Lava  rock  for  the  top  layer  is  that  the  sand  alone  will  not  give  you  a  pure  black  color.  It  will  be  slightly  black-brown  when  immersed.
 
 Be  aware  that  the  construction  sand  is  a  PITA  to  clean...
 Better  use  a  sieve  to  get  the  particle  size  you  need  otherwise  you'll  be  swilling  gravel  around  in  a  bucket  forever...    Smile  
 
 I  did  not  bother  to  sieve  and  I  spent  over  an  hour  washing  the  gravel  for  a  1  foot  tank...  No  fun  at  all  I  assure  you...
 
 Regards,
 Venkat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Will  keep  that  in  mind...  and  shall  make  sure  I  sieve  it.  Any  ideas  where  I  should  go  to  buy  the  stuff  (construction  sand)  in  Mumbai...  sorry  for  all  the  dumbo  questions,  am  not  very  resourceful!  :p  Oh,  and  about  the  crushed  lava  rock...  Madan  mentioned  that  it  is  hard  to  source,  you  second  that  for  Mumbai  as  well?  And  what's  the  smallest  particle  size  that  one  might  get?  Moreover...  would  the  gravel  particles  formed  by  lava  rock  be  too  jagged  and  sharp  edged...  defintely  a  no-no  in  that  case!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Nishant,
 
 Construction  sand:  
 Just  walk  over  to  your  friendly  neighbourhood  building  material  supplier's  shop.  You  can  recognise  it  by  the  bricks  and  stuff  stacked  outside.  Let  me  know  if  you  can't  find  one.  I  have  at  least  a  dozen  within  a  kilometer  radius  of  my  house...    Very Happy  
 
 They'll  be  glad  to  sell  it  to  suckers  like  us  who'll  pay  good  money  for  just  a  few  kilos.  I  paid  10/-  for  something  like  8  kilos.  He  just  pulled  the  figure  out  of  his  head.  Guy  kept  shovelling  it  into  my  bag  till  I  asked  him  to  stop.  So  this  is  the  REALLY  CHEAP  stuff...    they  will  NOT  sieve  it  for  you.  you  need  to  do  that  yourself  so  consider  that  wastage  when  you  buy.
 
 Crushed  basalt:
 I  think  should  not  be  difficult  to  find  considering  the  geography  of  Mumbai  but  I've  never  really  looked  for  a  supply.  
 
 Madan  will  have  difficulty  sourcing  it  because  of  his  location.  Bangalore  is  mostly  granite  -I  guess.    I  used  to  bring  back  lots  of  granite  chips  for  my  tanks  from  Bangalore  earlier  much  to  the  dismay  of  my  parents  Smile  
 
 The  problem  might  be  in  finding  crushed  rock  of  the  right  granularity.  rocks  are  easy  to  find.  Just  go  on  a  trip  to  any  of  the  trekking  locations  around  mumbai  and  the  rock  there  is  all  basalt.  Crushing  it  is  another  matter  Smile
 
 I  will  try  to  find  out  if  anybody  supplies  this  stuff  here...  Regarding  sharpness,  maybe  the  crushing  process  might  take  the  edge  off  things  but  can't  be  sure.  I  will  try  to  find  out  and  let  you  know.
 
 Madan:
 Maybe  75  of  you  in  Bangalore  could  get  together  to  order  a  truck.  that  would  make  200  kilos  apiece...    Chuckle    
 
 I  will  check  if  anybody  here  will  supply  to  Bangalore.
 
 Regards,
 
 Venkat
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