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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Setting up new tank+sump suggestions.
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Setting up new tank+sump suggestions.
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aqua_2k
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:35 am Post subject: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Hi  All,
 
   I  am  planning  to  setup  a  new  tank....size  would  be  3'x15''x18''...tank  volume  works  out  150L/40G.  I  am  bored  of  buying  ready  made  tank  everytime.  This  time  i  want  to  built  one  on  my  own.   Cheering  and  I  don't  want  to  go  for  another  canister  filter.....want  to  build  a  sump   Very Happy   
 
 Planning  for  glasses  of  10mm  thickness.
 
 Things  i  want  to  know  are  
 
 1.  what  kind  of  support  should  i  give  for  holding  the  glasses  together.  Is  fixing  supporting  glasses  at  the  corner  along  the  width  is  enough  or  do  i  need  additional  support  at  the  center  or  should  I  go  for  support  along  the  length  of  the  tank.  
 2.  What  should  be  the  sump  capacity?
 3.  Should  drain  be  setup  at  the  bottom  or  at  the  side  wall?
 4.  what  should  be  the  ideal  size  of  hole  considering  standard  pvc  pipe/valve/stopper  sizes  available  in  hardware  store.
 5.  Do  LFS  drill  glasses  or  should  i  get  it  done  at  shop  where  i  buy  glasses.  Any  pointer  to  shop  will  be  gr8...i  am  from  chennai,  anything  near  to  tnagar?
 6.  How  to  built  the  overflow?  with  glasses  or  acrylic?  which  one  is  easy  to  get  cut  for  making  the  comb  like  structure  at  the  top?  is  remade  acrylic  sheets  available  for  making  overflow?
 7.  How  difficult  is  to  do  plumbing?  i  have  never  done  one   Shocked  
 8.  I  also  need  to  drill  the  tank  stand  for  the  overflow  pipe  to  drain  into  the  sump  rite...means  i  need  a  carpenter  to  get  it  drilled?
 9.  do  i  need  to  get  a  silicon  gun  for  applying  glue  on  the  glasses?
 
 BTW  i  am  planning  for  moss  only  tank....
 
 Thanks,
 Senthil
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ruchit
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Joined: May 16, 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Hey  Senthil,  How  are  you  ?  Man  you  should  post  your  massive  tanks  here  someday,  they  are  beautiful.  Now  coming  to  your  query  I  think  you  do  not  need  bracing  for  the  size  you  mentioned.  Go  for  12mm  as  it  will  be  more  sturdy.
 
 2.  What  should  be  the  sump  capacity?  
 ---  A  2*1*1ft  sump  should  be  good  with  proper  partition  for  filter  media  and  sponges.
 
 3.  Should  drain  be  setup  at  the  bottom  or  at  the  side  wall?  
 ---  This  completely  depends  on  you,  if  you  drill  your  bottom  glass  then  you  need  to  do  Durso  Type  a   drain,  as  this  system  will  make  your  plumbing  completely  invisible  from  outside.
 
 4.  what  should  be  the  ideal  size  of  hole  considering  standard  pvc  pipe/valve/stopper  sizes  available  in  hardware  store.  
 --  A  1"  drill  should  be  safe  if  you  plan  to  do  multiple  drill  for  your  drain.  Again  this  size  depends  on  the  return  pump  you  plan  to  use.  For  example  if  you  plan  to  use  a  1500lph  pump  a  safer  drain  hole  size  will  1  1/2"  or  two  1"  drills.
 
 5.  Do  LFS  drill  glasses  or  should  i  get  it  done  at  shop  where  i  buy  glasses.  Any  pointer  to  shop  will  be  gr8...i  am  from  chennai,  anything  near  to  tnagar?  
 ---  LFS  do  not  drill  glasses  there  can  be  few  who  may  do.  You  can  get  your  glasses  drilled  from  the  same  place  you  get  them  ordered.  Also  make  sure  you  get  the  edges  of  the  glasses  polished.
 
 6.  How  to  built  the  overflow?  with  glasses  or  acrylic?  which  one  is  easy  to  get  cut  for  making  the  comb  like  structure  at  the  top?  is  remade  acrylic  sheets  available  for  making  overflow?
 ---  A  simple  way  would  just  connecting  the  CPVC  pipe  like  in  the  drawing  below.
 
 
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vkv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Look  up  the  beananimal  silent  overflow  online.
 
 A  top  overflow  along  the  side(calfo)  is  preferred  as  it  is  easier  to  surface  skim  and  does  not  take  up  space  in  the  tank.
 
 My  LFS  built  the  tank  to  my  specs  and  got  the  glass  drilled  as  well  before  assembly.
 
 A  word  of  advise.  Buy  the  bulkheads  first  and  take  it  with  you  when  you  get  the  glass  drilled  so  the  guy  knows  the  exact  size.
 
 Size  of  overflow  pipe  will  be  decided  by  flow  you  expect  from  your  return  pump.  Dont  ignore  head  loss.
 1"  should  be  fine  with  a  3/4  inch  return.
 
 Use  unions  so  that  you  can  disconnect  the  parts  easily  for  maintenance.
 
 regards,
 Venkat
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garothmaan
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Location: Mumbai, Bharat (AKA...INDIA)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 great  going  good  luck.  Use  silicon  gun  to  stick  glass.  read  this  article  
 
 http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26
 
 Building  a  Tank  photos
 
 http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=26
 
 for  silicon   read  this
 
 http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=31275
 
 BEAN  OVERFLOW
 http://www.salt-city.org/showthread.php?25928-How-to-install-an-Inky-box


Last edited by garothmaan on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Athreyan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Hi  Senthil,
 Congrats  on  your  new  project.
 A  sump  is  a  great  way  to  set  up  a  tank,  even  if  it  is  not  a  marine.  I  made  one  for  my  goldfish,  with  a  sump.  It  works  like  a  charm  &  keeps  the  water  crystal  clear.
 You  can  check  out  my  build  here:  my  build
 I'm  yet  to  update  that  with  fish  pictures.  I've  used  what  is  called  a  'beananimal  overflow'.  It  is  super  silent  and  very  efficient.  The  way  I've  made  it  occupies  a  lot  of  space  but  you  could  alter  it  accordingly  (if  you  decide  to  go  this  way).
 
 Let  me  try  answering  some  of  your  queries:
 
 1.  what  kind  of  support  should  i  give  for  holding  the  glasses  together.  Is  fixing  supporting  glasses  at  the  corner  along  the  width  is  enough  or  do  i  need  additional  support  at  the  center  or  should  I  go  for  support  along  the  length  of  the  tank.
 +1  Ruchit.  You  won't  need  much  bracing  for  this  size  tank.
 
 2.  What  should  be  the  sump  capacity?
 Your  sump  can  be  a  minimum  of  15G.  but  the  bigger  the  better.  keep  atleast  4  partitions.  Take  into  account,  the  flow  rate  and  draining  volume  (the  amount  of  water  that  will  drain  into  the  sump  when  the  power  goes  out.).  The  drain  volume  should  be  the  buffer  space  in  your  sump.  it  should  be  empty  during  normal  operation,  which  will  fill  up  during  power  cut.
 
 3.  Should  drain  be  setup  at  the  bottom  or  at  the  side  wall?
 This  is  your  choice.  A  bottom  drilled  tank  is  in  general  a  fixed  logistics  setup.  You  cannot  change  much  of  the  setup  once  it  has  been  drilled.  Whereas  if  you  drill  the  sides  or  have  a  hang-on-the-back  overflow  box,  your  setup  can  be  flexible  for  future  changes.
 
 4.  what  should  be  the  ideal  size  of  hole  considering  standard  pvc  pipe/valve/stopper  sizes  available  in  hardware  store.
 size  of  the  hole  obviously  depends  on  the  dia  of  the  plumbing.  Essentially,  you  will  be  using  a  bulkhead  (locally  it  is  called  'tank  nipple')  through  the  hole.  Buy  the  plumbing  hardware  first.  give  the  man  drilling  your  glass  the  bulkhead  &  ask  him  to  give  you  a  perfect  fit.  Your  plumbing  dia  depends  on  your  flow  rate.  If  you  want  10x  flow,  then  you  must  use  a  2000lph  pump  (considering  head  loss).  for  a  1500lph  flow  rate,  1"  plumbing  should  be  good.  The  point  is,  you  can  have  a  larger  dia  pipe,  but  it  doesn't  serve  any  benefits.  on  the  contrary,  the  empty  space  will  only  create  more  noise.
 
 5.  Do  LFS  drill  glasses  or  should  i  get  it  done  at  shop  where  i  buy  glasses.  Any  pointer  to  shop  will  be  gr8...i  am  from  chennai,  anything  near  to  tnagar?
 LFS  will  not  drill  glass.  Go  to  a  glass  store.  But  first  make  sure  he  drills  glass.  not  all  glass  shops  will  drill  glass.  
 
 6.  How  to  built  the  overflow?  with  glasses  or  acrylic?  which  one  is  easy  to  get  cut  for  making  the  comb  like  structure  at  the  top?  is  remade  acrylic  sheets  available  for  making  overflow?
 If  you're  making  a  toothed  weir,  you  have  to  make  it  out  of  acrylic.  Its  not  impossible  to  make  it  out  of  glass,  but  IMO  it  is  not  worth  the  effort.  However,  if  you  want  to  use  glass,  you  can  try  attaching  a  mesh  to  the  top.  But  my  choice  would  be  acrylic.  It  also  blocks  out  the  view  to  the  overflow,  so  it  looks  neat.  The  plumbing  is  not  a  pretty  thing  to  see!
 
 7.  How  difficult  is  to  do  plumbing?  i  have  never  done  one
 Plumbing  is  not  about  difficulty.  It  is  more  about  knack  &  common  sense.  Well,  its  also  about  the  tools.  You  must  have  the  right  tools  to  make  your  life  easier.  If  you're  good  with  doing  things  around  the  house  (changing  bulbs,  fixing  leaks,  banging  nails  etc)  you  shouldn't  have  any  problem.   Thumb Up  
 
 8.  I  also  need  to  drill  the  tank  stand  for  the  overflow  pipe  to  drain  into  the  sump  rite...means  i  need  a  carpenter  to  get  it  drilled?
 You  need  to  drill  the  stand  only  if  it  is  a  bottom  drilled  tank.  If  you  decide  to  drill  the  side  or  if  you  plan  to  have  an  hang-on-the-back  overflow  box,  then  you  can  send  the  plumbing  through  the  back.
 
 9.  do  i  need  to  get  a  silicon  gun  for  applying  glue  on  the  glasses?
 You  definitely  need  a  silicone  gun.  It  doesn't  cost  much.  Just  about  150  or  so.
 
 Just  a  small  suggestion...  You  don't  necessarily  need  to  drill  holes.  You  can  make  a  hang-on-the-back  overflow  box  &  set  up  your  sump.  just  a  thought.
 
 Lastly...  let  me  know  if  you  I  can  join  you  during  your  build.  Would  love  to  watch  (and  help,  if  you  need)
 
 good  luck!   Thumb Up
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vkv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 I  would  advise  against  using  a  sump  with  a  overflow  box  and  no  drilled  holes.
 
 Not  reliable  and  can  cause  a  flood.
 
 Regards,
 Venkat
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 If  you  are  using  a  pump  into  a  sump  filter  for  returning  the  water,  its  not  much  of  innovation.  Best  would  be  use  air  on  both  pipes.
 1.  the  siphon  pipe
 2.  the  return  pipe
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Athreyan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 +1  venkat...  I  was  just  posing  all  the  options  available.  that's  all.  Full  proper  plumbing  is  the  best  way  to  go.
 
 You  cannot  return  water  using  siphon.  Your  only  option  is  a  pump.  Well,  if  you  plan  to  keep  the  sump  above  the  main  tank  level,  then  you  use  the  pump  to  draw  water.  but  a  pump  is  definitely  necessary.
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

                                                   
Athreyan  wrote  (View  Post):                
+1  venkat...  I  was  just  posing  all  the  options  available.  that's  all.  Full  proper  plumbing  is  the  best  way  to  go.
 
 You  cannot  return  water  using  siphon.  Your  only  option  is  a  pump.  Well,  if  you  plan  to  keep  the  sump  above  the  main  tank  level,  then  you  use  the  pump  to  draw  water.  but  a  pump  is  definitely  necessary.                

 
 IMO   Smile   a  wholely  air  moved  water  circulation  is  the  best  option.  
 
 If  power  cuts,  air  cuts,  and  therefore  no  chances  of  water  flooding  at  home.
 
 I  am  not  having  time  right  now,  or  I  would  have  actually  demonstrated  the  process.  anyways  good  luck


Last edited by garothmaan on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vkv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Wow  garothmaan.
 A  perfect  machine.  No  external  energy  source?
 
 Look  forward  to  your  having  time  to  explain.  Will  save  me  a  packet  on  moving  3000  lph  using  electricity.
 
 Please  post  soon  in  a  separate  thread.
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Athreyan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

                                                   
garothmaan  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
Athreyan  wrote  (View  Post):                
+1  venkat...  I  was  just  posing  all  the  options  available.  that's  all.  Full  proper  plumbing  is  the  best  way  to  go.
 
 You  cannot  return  water  using  siphon.  Your  only  option  is  a  pump.  Well,  if  you  plan  to  keep  the  sump  above  the  main  tank  level,  then  you  use  the  pump  to  draw  water.  but  a  pump  is  definitely  necessary.                

 
 IMO   Smile   a  wholely  air  moved  water  circulatio  is  the  best  optio.  If  power  cuts,  air  cuts,  and  therefore  no  chances  of  water  flooding  at  home.
 
 I  am  not  having  time  right  now,  or  I  would  have  actually  demonstrated  the  process.  anyways  good  luck                

 
 Please  do  explain  how  this  works  when  you  have  the  time.  Also  some  pics  of  your  set  up  will  be  nice.  there  will  be  a  whole  lot  of  us  who  will  benefit  from  the  knowledge.
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

                                                   
Athreyan  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
garothmaan  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
Athreyan  wrote  (View  Post):                
+1  venkat...  I  was  just  posing  all  the  options  available.  that's  all.  Full  proper  plumbing  is  the  best  way  to  go.
 
 You  cannot  return  water  using  siphon.  Your  only  option  is  a  pump.  Well,  if  you  plan  to  keep  the  sump  above  the  main  tank  level,  then  you  use  the  pump  to  draw  water.  but  a  pump  is  definitely  necessary.                

 
 IMO   Smile   a  wholely  air  moved  water  circulatio  is  the  best  optio.  If  power  cuts,  air  cuts,  and  therefore  no  chances  of  water  flooding  at  home.
 
 I  am  not  having  time  right  now,  or  I  would  have  actually  demonstrated  the  process.  anyways  good  luck                

 
 Please  do  explain  how  this  works  when  you  have  the  time.  Also  some  pics  of  your  set  up  will  be  nice.  there  will  be  a  whole  lot  of  us  who  will  benefit  from  the  knowledge.                

 
 
 Ofcourse  guys....  but  just  for  the  thought,  have  you  seen  the  UG  filter  workings?  exactly  that  process.
 
   but  I  will  move  the  water  out  of  the  tank  and  the  same  process  in  the  sump  will  bring  water  back  to  the  tank.  try  to  imagine  atleast.......,  this  concept.
 
   Smile
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vkv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Having  a  hard  time  imagining  a  UG  mechanism  moving  3000  lph  to  head  height  of  5  feet.  Will  wait  for  the  demo.
 
 And  just  for  the  record,  the  sump  siphon  mechanism  in  the  bean  animal  design  has  more  than  enough  safeguards  against  a  flood.
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garothmaan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

                                                   
vkv  wrote  (View  Post):                
Having  a  hard  time  imagining  a  UG  mechanism  moving  3000  lph  to  head  height  of  5  feet.  Will  wait  for  the  demo.
 
 And  just  for  the  record,  the  sump  siphon  mechanism  in  the  bean  animal  design  has  more  than  enough  safeguards  against  a  flood.                

 
 Yes  yes  I  agree....  
 
 A  UG  filter  collects  all  the  dirt  from  the  whole  bottom  surface(every  square  inch)  thats  the  main  advantage  of  it.  It  covers  the  whole  bottom  surface.
 
 And  it  has  just  1  pipe  in  the  corner,  with  an  airstone  attached  to  the  pipe,  running  down  from  the  top  till  just  1inch  above  the  bottom  layer.  
 
 Now,  this  air  stone  pushes  the  water  up  3feet  high  and  the  air  gets  released  on  the  top  water  surface.
 
 we  wont  use  the  filter  plates  of  UG,  we  will  use,  just  the  pipe,  airstone,  elbow  and  simple  air  pump  to  move  the  water  to  the  top.  If  another  pipe  with  an  extension  and  an  elbow  is  attached  to  form   "n"   to  bring  this  water  out  (  at  whatever  rate),  its  enough  to  drop  this  water  into  a  sump.  another  "n"  to  send  it  back  same  principal.
 
 HOWZ  that  Clapping
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Athreyan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Setting up new tank+sump suggestions. Reply with quote

 Garothmaan!   Cheer Up  
 
 Here  are  some  concerns  I  have  regarding  your  'imagination':
 
 A  sump,  in  general,  is  placed  below  the  main  tank.  So  the  main  concern  is  not  getting  the  water  to  the  sump  but  getting  it  back  to  the  main  tank.  Please  explain  a  suitable  mechanism  for  that.
 
 One  of  the  main  uses  of  a  sump/overflow  setup  is  surface  skimming.  Otherwise  it  is  just  another  canister  filter  essentially.  Yes,  as  you  mentioned,  one  has  to  vacuum  the  gravel  occasionally.  But  that  should  not  be  much  pain  as  we  do  water  changes  in  any  case.  And  in  Senthil's  case,  he  is  aiming  for  a  planted  tank.  so  there  is  no  need  for  gravel  cleaning  at  all.
 
 Your  air-stone  system,  I  presume,  will  use  an  air  pump.  So  how  does  that  make  it  self-reliant?  We  might  as  well  use  a  water  pump  (and  get  enough  flow  rate  in  the  bargain)  and  be  done  with  it.
 
 Please  remember  that  flow  rate  is  an  important  factor  in  filtration.  How  does  one  achieve  that  using  your  system?
 
 You  mention  something  about  dirt  collection  properties  of  the  UG  system.  and  then  you  go  about  explaining  how  you  don't  intend  using  UG  plates.  How  will  the  system  collect  the  dirt  if  there  is  no  space  to  collect  it?
 
 Please  also  remember  that  the  UG  filter  is  the  worst  idea  for  a  planted  tank.  The  UG  plates  will  get  clogged  by  the  roots  etc.  God  forbid,  you  try  uprooting  a  plant  that  has  its  roots  in  the  UG  plates!   Surprised  
 
 But,  if  you  can  give  us  a  video  demonstration  of  how  your  proposed  system  will  work.  Would  love  to  learn  a  new  trick.
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