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No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea
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codervetri
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 All  the  criticisms  whole  kindheartedly  Accepted  !  Cheering  
 This  post  is  to  discuss  whether  this  could  be  possible  and  how  can  this  be  improvised  to  make  it  possible.
 
 unable  to  post  the  pic.  suggest  me  an  alternative.  
 
   photo  link  in  IAH  FB
 
 If  you  are  desperate  to  find  a  method  to  have  planted  tank  with  no  investment  in  CO2  equipment   AND  YOU  ARE  ALWAYS  MUCH  INTO  TRYING  OUT  NEW  THINGS  you  can  experiment  this  method.
 
 
 Idea:  To  use  the  CO2  exhaled  by  plants  during  respiration  for  supporting  photosynthesis   (in  absence  of  light  CO2  concentration  will  be  more  as  it  will  not  be  used  up  for  photosynthesis,  this  CO2  will  be  used  for  photosynthesis  of  the  plants  exposed  to  light  )
 
 Plan:  Two  or  more  tanks  share  the  same  water  circulation,  but  different  light  timings.  If  there  are  two  tanks  in  the  design,  say  A  &  B,  when  A  gets  light,  B's  turned  off  and  vice  versa.  This  cycle  will  be  continued.  
 
 
 This  is  what  i  think  it  will  happen.  When  A's  light  turned  on,  the  CO2  exhaled  by  the  tank  B  will  be  used  up  by  the  plants  in  tank  A.  After  8  hours,  light  is  turned  off,  after  few  more  hours  (for  CO2  to  build  up  in  the  water,  this  part  may  or  may  not  be  necessary)  B's  light  is  turned  on.  This  process  will  go  on  repeatedly.
 
 
 Design  this  is  for  demonstration  of  the  concept.  you  can  come  up  with  your  design
 
 1.Three  tanks  A,B,C  connected  by  two  inverted  U  tubes  filled  with  water  and  no  air  in  it  as  depicted  in  the  attachment
 2.Canister  Z's  inlet  is  in  B  and  outlet  in  A.
 
 remember  "liquids  seek  its  own  level"  property?  we  will  apply  it  here
 
 Circulation  :
 Canister  will  suck  water  from  C,  this  will  drop  the  water  level  of  C  
 Canister  will  push  water  to  A,  this  will  raise  water  level  in  A
 
 Since  liquids  seek  their  own  level,  water  from  A  and  C  will  try  to  balance  equilibrium  through  the  inverted  tubes  U1,U2.
 
 having  no  Air  in  the  U-tubes  is  crucial  (  bubbles  are  accepted)
 
 
 Lighting  :  
 Each  tank  will  be  lighted  for  8  hours  successively.  for  example  in  a  day  
 
 8:00  am  -  4:00  pm     =  A  on  ,  B  C  off
 4:00  pm  -  12:00  am  =  B  on  ,  A  C  off
 12:00am  -  8:00  am  =  C  on  ,  A  C   off
 
 well  this  is  just  my  idea  of  implementing  for  explaining  the  concept.  I  am  not  gonna  try  this.  I  m  posting  this  just  to  check  whether  this  method  will  be  plausible.
 
 Gaurentees:  
 1.When  the  plants  are  less  in  number,  there  might  not  be  enough  CO2  in  water
 2.This  might  not  work   Sad   Sad   :cry:
 
 PS:  i  just  want  to  know  whether  this  is  possible  or  not
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saikumar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

                                                   
codervetri  wrote  (View  Post):                
Idea:  To  use  the  CO2  exhaled  by  plants  during  respiration  for  supporting  photosynthesis   (in  absence  of  light  CO2  concentration  will  be  more  as  it  will  not  be  used  up  for  photosynthesis,  this  CO2  will  be  used  for  photosynthesis  of  the  plants  exposed  to  light  )
                 

 
 Plants  take  in  CO2->  make  food  made  up  of  "C"  and  consume->  Give  out  O2.
 So  you  see  carbon  is  consumed,  meaning  the  molar  CO2  intake  is  more  than  what  will  be  respired  in  a  day.  So,  CO2  might  not  suffice  the  other  tank's  requirements
 And  also  to  note,  this  CO2  will  not  be  spread  across  2  tanks,  so  even  if  one  tank  generates  30ppm  CO2,  it  ll  be  halved.
 I  hope  I  made  some  sense  Wink  ,  i
 
 
 
                                                 
codervetri  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Plan:  Two  or  more  tanks  share  the  same  water  circulation,  but  different  light  timings.  If  there  are  two  tanks  in  the  design,  say  A  &  B,  when  A  gets  light,  B's  turned  off  and  vice  versa.  This  cycle  will  be  continued.  
 
 
 This  is  what  i  think  it  will  happen.  When  A's  light  turned  on,  the  CO2  exhaled  by  the  tank  B  will  be  used  up  by  the  plants  in  tank  A.  After  8  hours,  light  is  turned  off,  after  few  more  hours  (for  CO2  to  build  up  in  the  water,  this  part  may  or  may  not  be  necessary)  B's  light  is  turned  on.  This  process  will  go  on  repeatedly.
 
 
 Design  this  is  for  demonstration  of  the  concept.  you  can  come  up  with  your  design
 
 1.Three  tanks  A,B,C  connected  by  two  inverted  U  tubes  filled  with  water  and  no  air  in  it  as  depicted  in  the  attachment
 2.Canister  Z's  inlet  is  in  B  and  outlet  in  A.
 
 remember  "liquids  seek  its  own  level"  property?  we  will  apply  it  here
 
 Circulation  :
 Canister  will  suck  water  from  C,  this  will  drop  the  water  level  of  C  
 Canister  will  push  water  to  A,  this  will  raise  water  level  in  A
 
                 

 
 I  liked  the  idea  a  lot,  just  put  pressurised  CO2  in  one  tank  and  enjoy  in  all  tanks.
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codervetri
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 Saikumar,  would  the  following  work?
 
 Plants  which  grow  like  weed  without  co2  injection  like  Val's,  e.tennelus  can  be  used  in  one  tank.  And  hardy  plants  requiring  co2  in  other.
 
 These  weed  plants  will  use  up  very  little  co2  and  release  too  much  co2  during  respiration.  Correct  me  if  I'm  wrong.  
 
 If  weed  plants  are  kept  in  HUGE  number  won't  that  be  sufficient?
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saikumar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:41 am Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 I  am  actually  not  from  plant  background.  And  I  havent  come  across  such  relation  or  stats  which  says  fast  growers  take  in  less  carbon/CO2.
 Try  searching  for  some  reference  which  has  details  about  O2  absorbtion  rate  in  night  and  CO2  absorbtion  rate  in  day,  and  you  should  have  some  information  to  build  upon.  I  am  assuming  atleast  common  varieties  like  vals  you  ll  find  easily.
 
 This  equation  can  help  you  somewhere
 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6997680/Summary-Equation-for-Photosynthesis
 Just  see  that  although  its  same  6CO2  going  in  and  coming  out,  plants  dont  use  up  the  whole  food  they  made  that  day.
 
 Just  like  your  mind,  mine  too  says  its  not  gonna  work,  but  we  may  be  just  be  missing  a  simple  logic  inbetween  to  convince  it.
 
 
 If  you  anyway  want  to  find  on  your  own,  try  using  a  4dKH  solution  in  your  tank  with  weeds  and  see  if  the  colour  changes  at  all.
 
 
 Cheers!
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Nidhi
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 codervetri,
 You  have  come  up  with  this  idea  theoretically,  Only  way  to  find  out  whether  it  works  is  to  go  ahead  and  try  it  practically..
 I  have  a  feel  that  it  might  just  work  out..
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bettaji
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:04 am Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 Dear  Codervetri,
 
 First  of  all  please  update  your  location  details  in  your  profile.  Secondly  the  cost  which  will  be  incurred  by  you  in  terms  of  having  this  is  second  tank  setup  will  atleast  be  around  3K  put  in  some  more  money  and  you  can  get  yourself  a  bare  minimum  pressurized  Co2  setup.  Thirdly  as  Nidhi  said  you  wouldn't  for  sure  until  you  do  it  and  see  for  yourself.  
 
 But  having  said  all  this  I  must  say  I  really  like  your  idea.  And  even  before  reading  your  second  post  I  was  contemplating  on  using  a  fast  growing  plant  like  Vals,  hydrilla,  rotalla  najanshen  or  something  like  that.  
 
 But  as  Sai  said  your  biggest  challenge  is  going  to  be  transporting  this  Co2  from  one  tank  to  another  because  the  in  water  the  gaseous  transfer  is  very  slow  I  have  my  own  Non  Co2  low  tech  Planted  tank  you  can  see  them  on  my  FB  profile.
 Facebook-Link
 
 I  had  done  my  study  before  doing  this  tank  and  its  a  combination  of  lots  of  best  practices  from  different  Non  Co2  techniques.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 Dear  Code,
 
 Sounds  like  an  idea  if  you  have  different  sets  of  plants  in  each  aquarium.  Could  possibly  work.  But  like  bettaji  said  the  cost  of  having  a  second  tank  would  be  more  expensive  than  buying  a  CO2  setup.  Instead  of  having  2  planted  setups,  you  could  instead  have  a  fish  only  tank  along  with  a  planted  aquarium.  The  planted  aquarium  could  act  like  a  refugium  for  the  non-planted  one.  But  instead  on  focussing  on  clearance  of  organic  matter  and  CO2  in  the  planted  aquarium  you  will  be  using  the  fish  only  aquarium  to  supply  CO2  to  the  planted  aquarium.
 
 I'm  currently  experimenting  with  something  different.  A  1  litre  bottle  of  soda  has  between  2-5  gms  of  CO2  dissolved  in  it.  I  take  an  assumption  of  3  which  gives  3000  ppm  (super  saturated  CO2).  Added  to  200  litres  of  water,  this  gives  15  ppm  of  CO2.  More  than  enough  for  the  plants.  A  weekly  dose  seems  to  keep  plants  healthy  and  does  not  cause  fishes  or  shrimp  any  noticeable  harm  yet.  I  still  would  not  recommend  this  to  amatuers  who  donot  have  a  test  kit  to  monitor.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 @Vetrivel  Shanmugam
 
 All  this  after  Rohit  KP  posted  his  "without  CO2  glosso"  mat  tank
 Hope  you  crack  this   Thumb Up
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codervetri
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

                                                   
bettaji  wrote  (View  Post):                
Dear  Codervetri,
 
 First  of  all  please  update  your  location  details  in  your  profile.  Secondly  the  cost  which  will  be  incurred  by  you  in  terms  of  having  this  is  second  tank  setup  will  atleast  be  around  3K  put  in  some  more  money  and  you  can  get  yourself  a  bare  minimum  pressurized  Co2  setup.  Thirdly  as  Nidhi  said  you  wouldn't  for  sure  until  you  do  it  and  see  for  yourself.  
                 

 
 
 Thats  true,  but  so  far,  most  of  the  aquarist,  they  dont  stop  with  a  single  tank   Very Happy  
 
 
 
                                                 
superbsite  wrote  (View  Post):                

 @Vetrivel  Shanmugam
 
 All  this  after  Rohit  KP  posted  his  "without  CO2  glosso"  mat  tank
 Hope  you  crack  this   Thumb Up
                 

 
 
 Actually  he  gave  me  a  spark   Rock On  
 
 
                                                 
bettaji  wrote  (View  Post):                

 But  as  Sai  said  your  biggest  challenge  is  going  to  be  transporting  this  Co2  from  one  tank  to  another  because  the  in  water  the  gaseous  transfer  is  very  slow  I  have  my  own  Non  Co2  low  tech  Planted  tank  you  can  see  them  on  my  FB  profile.
 
                 

 
 but  i  believe  that  exhaled  co2  will  be  dissolved  in  water,  since  it  is  in  water  wont  it  be  carried  away  with  the  circulation?  (may  be  wrong,  but  this  is  what  i  was  thinking  all  these  days)  
 
 
 
 I  am  waiting  to  get  suggestions/  improvisations  to  make  this  little  possible.
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superbsite
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 @vaibhav_v4u
 Good  Idea  on  the  Soda.  I  must  try  this  out  for  a  weekly  dose   Thumb Up
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jjaaxx44
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 @Vaibhav:
 Soda  water  option  seems  good  I  also  had  this  in  mind.
 
 but  I  did  not  try  this  as  it  does  not  seems  to  be  very  efficient.
 
 Also  for  long  run  Pressurised  co2  becomes  very  cheap.
 
 
 Carbon  dioxide  gas  dissolved  in  water  at  a  low  concentration  (0.2–1.0%)  creates  carbonic  acid  (H2CO3)[3]  according  to  the  following  reaction:
 H2O(l)  +  CO2(g)  is  in  equilibrium  with  H2CO3(aq)
 This  causes  the  water  to  have  a  slightly  sour  taste  with  a  pH  between  3  and  4.[4]  An  alkaline  salt,  such  as  sodium  bicarbonate,  may  be  added  to  soda  water  to  reduce  its  acidity.
 The  amount  of  a  gas  like  carbon  dioxide  that  can  be  dissolved  in  water  is  described  by  Henry's  Law.  Water  is  chilled,  optimally  to  just  above  freezing,  in  order  to  permit  the  maximum  amount  of  carbon  dioxide  to  dissolve  in  it.  Higher  gas  pressure  and  lower  temperature  cause  more  gas  to  dissolve  in  the  liquid.  When  the  temperature  is  raised  or  the  pressure  is  reduced  (as  happens  when  a  container  of  carbonated  water  is  opened),  carbon  dioxide  comes  out  of  solution,  in  the  form  of  bubbles.[citation  needed]
 
 Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonated_water
 
 We  can  give  lab  grade  H2CO3  solution  a  try,  but  again  to  maintain  its  concentration  we  need  it  to  store  it  in  cold  place  I  guess.
 (I  have  not  tried  H2CO3  or  read  much  about  its  concentration  and  preservation,  but  from  reading  above  I  had  this  in  mind)
 
 -Abhishek
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superbsite
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 @Abhishek   Thumb Up
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:52 am Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

                                                   
jjaaxx44  wrote  (View  Post):                
@Vaibhav:
 Soda  water  option  seems  good  I  also  had  this  in  mind.
 
 but  I  did  not  try  this  as  it  does  not  seems  to  be  very  efficient.
 
 Also  for  long  run  Pressurised  co2  becomes  very  cheap.
 
 
 Carbon  dioxide  gas  dissolved  in  water  at  a  low  concentration  (0.2–1.0%)  creates  carbonic  acid  (H2CO3)[3]  according  to  the  following  reaction:
 H2O(l)  +  CO2(g)  is  in  equilibrium  with  H2CO3(aq)
 This  causes  the  water  to  have  a  slightly  sour  taste  with  a  pH  between  3  and  4.[4]  An  alkaline  salt,  such  as  sodium  bicarbonate,  may  be  added  to  soda  water  to  reduce  its  acidity.
 The  amount  of  a  gas  like  carbon  dioxide  that  can  be  dissolved  in  water  is  described  by  Henry's  Law.  Water  is  chilled,  optimally  to  just  above  freezing,  in  order  to  permit  the  maximum  amount  of  carbon  dioxide  to  dissolve  in  it.  Higher  gas  pressure  and  lower  temperature  cause  more  gas  to  dissolve  in  the  liquid.  When  the  temperature  is  raised  or  the  pressure  is  reduced  (as  happens  when  a  container  of  carbonated  water  is  opened),  carbon  dioxide  comes  out  of  solution,  in  the  form  of  bubbles.[citation  needed]
 
 Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonated_water
 
 We  can  give  lab  grade  H2CO3  solution  a  try,  but  again  to  maintain  its  concentration  we  need  it  to  store  it  in  cold  place  I  guess.
 (I  have  not  tried  H2CO3  or  read  much  about  its  concentration  and  preservation,  but  from  reading  above  I  had  this  in  mind)
 
 -Abhishek                

 
   You  are  right  about  a  CO2  cylinder  being  economical  in  the  longer  run.  However  for  those  going  for  a  low  tech  setup  and  want  their  plants  to  setup/carpet  quickly,  a  CO2  cylinder  tends  to  become  a  tad  more  expensive.  It's  a  beginner  option  to  reduce  the  amount  of  financial  input  and  make  it  seem  more  accessible.  I've  seen  people  take  one  look  at  cylinders  and  testing  kits  and  dropping  the  idea  of  an  aquarium  all  together  Razz.
 
   I  am  not  too  worried  about  sodium  bicarbonate  adding  up  in  my  tank.  Frequent  water  changes  brings  it  under  control.  Also  it  tends  to  act  like  a  buffer  for  the  pH.
 
 I  have  not  thought  of  lab  grade  H2CO3.  Not  sure  how  easy  it  would  be  to  access  that  and  if  it's  even  stable  at  room  temperature.  It  could  be  worth  a  shot.  I'll  try  to  see  if  I  can  get  my  hands  on  some!
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Nidhi
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

 Vibhav,
 Every  system  has  their  positives  or  negatives..
 Someone  has  said  it  rightly  "  eventually  you  will  pay  up,  one  way  or  the  other"..  hope  you  get  the  point.
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vaibhav_v4u
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: No CO2 planted tank - An R&D idea Reply with quote

                                                   
Nidhi  wrote  (View  Post):                
Vibhav,
 Every  system  has  their  positives  or  negatives..
 Someone  has  said  it  rightly  "  eventually  you  will  pay  up,  one  way  or  the  other"..  hope  you  get  the  point.                

 
 There's  only  one  way  to  find  out.  keep  experimenting  Smile.
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