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nvenkatramani
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject: we must have LFS feedback reviews Reply with quote

 Hi  all
 I  do  not  know  if  this  topic  has  been  taken  up  somewhere  else.  I  searched  but  could  not  find  it.  I  am  fairly  new  to  the  hobby  but  I  have  learned  very  fast.
 
 The  reason  is    that  there  is  a  large  Seller  of  african  chichlids  here  in  chennai    who  is  out  to  kill  the  hobby.  Most  of  his  fishes  are  Hybrids  and  some  are  pretty  nasty  when  they  grow  up  in  size.  The  problem  is  with  the  MBUNA  and  the  Peacocks.  The  other  Haps  are  too  complicated  for  him  also  to  Cross  breed.  Most  of  the  fishes  [/b]do  not  even  resemble  any  photos[/b]  on  sites  like  cichlid  .com  .  Sub  adults  and  Juveniles  have  full  Male  coloration  and  have  to  have  been  treated  with  hormones.    I  can  understand  why  Madan  ,  Beta  and  others  are  moving  to  Tangs.
 
 His  knowledge  is  not  too  great.  He  kept  Otos(dwarf  suckermouth)  in  tanks  and  fed  them  Blood  worms!!!!!.  The  poor  fishes  were  in  such  bad  health  that  they  promptly  died  on  the  way  home.  NO  refund,  and  I  guess  that  is  to  ask  too  much.  
 
 I  am  volunteering  for  a  review  on  LFS  in  our  cities  and  let  us  not  go  to  people  who  are  out  to  make    a  quick  buck.  I  know  with  Imports  not  allowed  it  is  a  difficulty  task  to  get  pure  breeds.  But  as  a  forum  we  have  to  educate  people  on  these  practices.
 
 My  senior  friends  I  appeal  to  all  of  you.  I  feel  very  strongly  on  this  subject.  
 
 Moderators  please  feel  free  to  move  this  to  the  right    Sub  forum.
 
 Please  are  we  ready  for  this?
 
 regards
 Narendra
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ravi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: we must have LFS feedback reviews Reply with quote

 Hi  Narendra,
 
 
                                                 
nvenkatramani  wrote:                

 I  do  not  know  if  this  topic  has  been  taken  up  somewhere  else.  I  searched  but  could  not  find  it.  I  am  fairly  new  to  the  hobby  but  I  have  learned  very  fast.
                 

 
 Ho  yes.  Many  times,  mostly  off  forums  thro  private  emails  or  personal  meetings.
 
 
                                                 
nvenkatramani  wrote:                

 The  reason  is    that  there  is  a  large  Seller  of  african  chichlids  here  in  chennai    who  is  out  to  kill  the  hobby.  Most  of  his  fishes  are  Hybrids  and  some  are  pretty  nasty  when  they  grow  up  in  size.  The  problem  is  with  the  MBUNA  and  the  Peacocks.  The  other  Haps  are  too  complicated  for  him  also  to  Cross  breed.  Most  of  the  fishes  do  not  even  resemble  any  photos  on  sites  like  cichlid  .com  .  Sub  adults  and  Juveniles  have  full  Male  coloration  and  have  to  have  been  treated  with  hormones.    I  can  understand  why  Madan  ,  Beta  and  others  are  moving  to  Tangs.
 
 His  knowledge  is  not  too  great.  He  kept  Otos(dwarf  suckermouth)  in  tanks  and  fed  them  Blood  worms!!!!!.  The  poor  fishes  were  in  such  bad  health  that  they  promptly  died  on  the  way  home.  NO  refund,  and  I  guess  that  is  to  ask  too  much.  
                 

 
 It  will  be  a  very  good  idea  not  to  use  such  strong  language  in  forums.  It's  also  a  very  bad  idea  to  make  unsubstatiated  allegetions  in  a  public  forum.  
 
 
                                                 
nvenkatramani  wrote:                

 I  am  volunteering  for  a  review  on  LFS  in  our  cities  and  let  us  not  go  to  people  who  are  out  to  make    a  quick  buck.  I  know  with  Imports  not  allowed  it  is  a  difficulty  task  to  get  pure  breeds.  But  as  a  forum  we  have  to  educate  people  on  these  practices.
 
 My  senior  friends  I  appeal  to  all  of  you.  I  feel  very  strongly  on  this  subject.  
                 

 
 Sure.  Many  people  feel  very  strongly  about  it.  You  must  realise  that  Aquarium  hobby  is  in  a  very  nascent  stage  here  in  India.  There  are  very  few  well  informed  Aquarists.  Most  of  the  aquariums  are  kept  by  school  kids,  for  whom  enthusiasm  makes  up  for  lack  of  knowledge.  There  are  in  no  position  to  appreciate  fine  points  of,  say,  Discus  or  Peacocks.  Cost  is  also  a  factor.  Most  of  the  LFS  are  tuned  to  supply  to  these  folks.  Consequently,  LFS  are  not  very  well  informed  on  things  like  need  to  maintain  the  purity  of  the  species.
 
 What  is  needed  is  a  process  of  education  wherein  LFS  are  educated  on  both  basics,  advanced  &  latest  concepts  of  fish  keeping.  Guidelines  for  LFS  &  Breeders  may  also  be  developed.  
 
 
                                                 
nvenkatramani  wrote:                

 Please  are  we  ready  for  this?
                 

 Please  think  long  &  hard  before  doing  anything.
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nvenkatramani
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: re Reply with quote

 Thanks  Ravi  ,
 
 I  appreciate  your  caution  and  advice  on  the  posting  in  this  public  forum.  I  tried  to  be  as  balanced  as  possible.  These  are  not  unsubstantiated  ,  as  I  am  the  proof,  and  so  does  the  other  "party".
 
 I  am  sure  you  understand  the  pain  in  raising  fish  ,  trying  to  give  it  the  best  possible  home,  the  innocence  and  trust  that  you  place  in  the  superior  knowledge  of  the  LFS,  and  you  land  up  with  a  very  different    entity.  
 
 Any  way  My  idea  was  to  initiate  a  feedback  programme  on  LFS  to  help  people  make  judgments  ,  but  if  the  Target  segment  (buyers)  do  not  refer  here  ,  the  purpose  is  defeated.  
 
 We  have  all  heard  stories  about  some  large  Pet    chain  stores  in  the  USA  and  the  talk  on  all  the  forums  about  it.
 
 At  the  end  of  the  day  ,  it  always  comes  down  to  this.  "CAVEAT  EMPTOR"  or  buyer  beware.
 
 One  must  keep  reading  ,  asking  the  experts  and  folowing  your  judgment.
 
 I  would  love  to  hear  more  on  the  feedback  programme  ,  incase  they    prefer  some  rating  or  grading  system  .  Otherwise  let  us  drop  the  idea  for  the  time  being.
 
 Thanks  for  listening  in  .  
 
 narendra
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murthy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:37 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hey  Ravi,Hey  narendra....couldn't  help  but  respond.It  is  true  that  extreme  caution  should  be  excercised  while  using  a  public  forum.But  I  have  to  agree  with  narendra  on  this  issue.If  hormone  fed  fish  are  necessary  for  school  kid  hobbyists  so  be  it....but  I  guess  the  buyer  should  be  informed.I  completely  agree  with  narendra's  point  of  having  invested  time,care,effort  and  not  least  ,money  into  growing  certain  specimen....all  the  while  the  breeder  laughing  away  at  our  naive  attempts  to  breed  them!!!  It  is  financial  damage,and  insulting  too!!Is  every  new  hobbyist  SUPPOSED  to  go  through  the  process  of  failure  with  those  tampered  specimens?(many  giving  up  )As  a  forum  that  helps  hobbyists,even  If  we  cannot  actually  name  faulty  breeders,atleast  a  list  of  dependable  breeders  be  compiled,so  that  breeders  who  want  to  be  on  this  list  would  attempt  to  be  hormone/hybrid  free!
         I  am  not  against  hormone  feeding/hybridisation  per  se....just  I  dont  want  to  be  conned  into  buying  one  of  those  despite  asking  for  clean  fish!
 
 P.S.Narendra....dont  be  so  sure  tangs  are  not  tampered  with  too!  :lol:
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venki25
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hey  guys
 
 Let's  understand,  we're  in  India  and  aquarium  hobby  is  not  very  mature.
 
 You  can't  keep  away  LFS  out  of  association  with  this  hobby.  Every  place  in  the  world  compalins  about  LFS  -  thier  owners  and  staff  being  poorly  educated  on  the  hobby.  Considerable  people  have  moved  away  from  buyibng  their  priced  fishes  from  LFS  and  breeder  /  distributors  are  in  place.  It  is  better  off  when  we  buy  fishes  from  such  people.  It  is  not  going  to  happen  tomorrow.  Everyone  of  us  needs  to  step  up  and  encourage  breeders  /  hobbyists  to  breed  and  distribute.  This  is  no  easy  job  on  the  first  hand.  You  cannot  have  LFS  people  to  gow  up  in  their  means  of  business.  For  LFS  pure  hobbyists  and  professionals  are  not  the  key  source  of  income.  Its  the  kids,  and  Vaastu/feng  shui  fans  who  bring  in  the  revenue.  
 
 For  a  country  like  ours  with  vast  pool  of  educated  hobbyists  -  we  should  try  and  get  fishes  from  professionals  first  then  go  on  to  tank  and  accessories.  When  this  is  in  place  -  why  should  we  complain.  I  think  the  forum  members  are  going  in  a  good  direction,  lets  not  crib  about  LFS  -  let  them  be  thier  own.
 
 Regards
 
 Venkatesh.
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nvenkatramani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:23 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 hi  all  ,
   
 I  fully  agree  that  we  should  encourage  the  professional  breeders  and  try  to  source  our  requirement  from  them  .  I  am  sure    no  serious  hobbyist  wants    "  MUTTS"    and  expects  that  the  fish  he  paid  good  money  for    breeds  ,  after  all  it  is  natural  for  fish  to  eat  ,  and  breed  .  
 
 Maybe  ,  what  is  needed  is  a  member  exchange  program.  If  i  have  a  good  sized  male  Ii  try  to  meet  up  with  some  one  who  has  a  female  and  we  put  up  the    healthy  fry  for  auction  on  IAH  .  I  am  thinking  aloud  .  One  needs  to  take  into  account  the  logistics.  Abroad  they  have  this  regular    meets  where  show  fish  are  displayed,  bought  and  sold.    All  of  this  is  private  domain  and  for  individuals/breeders.
 
 The  other  option  of  madhu  is  also  very  good.  We  put    up  a  list    of      breeders,  exchange    messages  on  availabilty  of  stock  and  be  done  with  it.
 
 All  over  the  world  the  changes  have  always  been  brought  about  by  hobbyist  .  Who  buys  Eheim  or  Dennerle  or  Tropica  products  if  not  the  hobbyist.  Companies    like    a  serious  hobbyist  for  his  repurchase    abilities  which  is  far  greater  than    a  one  time  Vaastu  purchase  or  a  schoolboy  thrill  where  the  fish  invariable  dies  after  the  vacation  is  over.
 
 Narendra
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murthy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:49 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 .....and  I  repeat,I  am  not  against  LFS,not  against  LFS  selling  hormone  fed/hybrid  fish.The  issue  is  not  at  all  about  the  retailer!!!Its  about  ornamental  fish  farmers  who  are  breeding  faultily.Again,if  it  is  a  commercial  necessity  to  breed  horm/hybrids,OK!!but  the  breeder  has  to  be  honest  and  sell  genuine  stuff  when  specifically  asked  for(which  unfortunately  is  NOT  the  case).
                   Clearly  there  are  two  distinct  markets:the  beginners,and  the  serious  hobbyists.But  all  serious  hobbyists  began  as  beginners....and  if  at  the  beginners  stage  failure  is  experienced  with  third  rate  stock,it  is  bad  for  the  hobby  as  a  whole!Unless  some  public"noise"is  made,no  farmer  will  wake  up.Along  the  line,LFS  too  will  have  to  wake  up  to  this  menace!
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nvenkatramani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:59 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Sorry    Murthy  ,
 
 Got  your  reference  wrong.  I  was  think  of  Madhu  in  another  thread  when  posting.  Please    do  not  mind    Cool  
 
 Narendra
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zap2jai
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 What  you  are  saying  is  true  word  for  word  Narendra.  But  the  speed  at  which  the  LFS  are  springing  up  and  the  demand  for  new  and  more  colorful  fish  have  created  the  kind  of  environment  which  is  really  pathetic  (Hybridisation).
 
 But  as  a  result  of  some  genuine  hobbyisits  the  love  for  pure  specimen  is  still  alive.
 
 It  is  not  in  the  hand  of  a  single  person  or  a  bunch  of  enthusiastic  people  to  change  the  scenario.  But  one  thing  can  be  done  as  my  dear  friend  Madhu  from  salem  suggests  "  Don't  go  for  it".  He  has  set  an  example  for  hobbyist  like  us.
 
 The  other  thing  is  that  people  who  were  normally  interested  in  ornamental  fish  like  Gold  and  Guppies  jumping  to  other  fish  like  Aros  and  Cichlids  without  any  knowledge  of  the  fish.  As  for  as  my  knowledge  goes  the  LFS  is  the  first  place  for  learning  and  the  LFS  owner  is  like  the  kindergarden  teacher.  So  if  the  basics  are  wrong  it  is  very  difficult  to  make  the  people  understand.  
 
 I  believe  if  we  meet  people  who  have  wrong  info  or  are  inclined  in  changing  the  hobby  then  in  that  case  it  is  our  duty  as  a  hobbyist  to  speak  to  them  and  correct  them  if  not  atleast  bring  to  their  notice  that  what  they  are  doing  is  wrong.
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oscar-lover
Regular Poster on IAH
Regular Poster on IAH



Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1070
Location: Dallas , TX

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Why  not  start  a  Aqua  Hobby  Maintainence  and  Information  school    :wink:
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zap2jai
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Frequent Visitor to IAH



Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 135


Status: Offline
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:00 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Ummmm.....
 Let's  think  of  it.
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murthy
Regular Poster on IAH
Regular Poster on IAH



Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Posts: 673
Location: Bangalore

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
zap2jai  wrote:                
.  But  one  thing  can  be  done  as  my  dear  friend  Madhu  from  salem  suggests  "  Don't  go  for  it".  He  has  set  an  example  for  hobbyist  like  us.
 
 .                

 ...........lets  for  example  say(hypothetical  scenario!),I  have  been  waiting  for  a  particular  fish,say,species  "XYZ".After  long  wait,finally  it  turns  up  at  the  LFS.I  spend  a  small  fortune,to  get  those  rare  whatever  fish.After  six  months,it  is  brought  to  my  notice  that  it  came  from  so-and-so  breeder.(who  is  notorious  for  doping  his  brooding  stock).
 Guys  of  IAH....what  will  you  do  now?It  is  difficult  to  go  by  the  dictum  of  "dont  go  for  it"cos  you  dont  know  "it"has  been  doped.like  a  mad  person,after  spending  sleepless  nights  praying  the  fish  settle,after  getting  all  kinds  of  weird  foods  the  fish  requires,after  making  religious  water  changes,if  it  gets  into  your  mind  that  the  fish  may  never  spawn  for  you....its  very  disturbing.You  simply  loose  interest!So,shall  we  simply  stop  purchasing  those  rare  fish?or  keep  purchasing  them  in  the  hope  that  one  or  two  may  by  mistake  have  not  been  doped?For  the  passionate  hobbyist,this  is  the  best  way  to  kill  the  hobby.Make  no  noise  about  it,and....
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zap2jai
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Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 135


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 You  are  rigth  Adi.  
 Even  I  have  spent  many  a  sleepless  nights  waiting  for  THE  fish  and  am  still  doing  so  for  many  new  ones.  I  felt  the  same  at  your  end  too.  This  is  called  passion  for  the  hobby  man.  This  is  what  we  all  share  in  this  forum.
 I  could  tell  a  lot  of  instances  which  have  happened  to  me.  I  had  a  Devil  till  a  few  days  back.  When  I  showed  it  to  a  friend  of  mine  he  told  me  that  it  is  not    a  pure  devil.  FH  needs  no  intro  man  this  is  the  flagship  of  hybridisation  and  I  had  many.
 But  there  is  a  point  where  I  put  a  line  and  I  felt  that  hybridisation  could  be  cruel  when  I  saw  blood  parrots.  Poor  things  they  could  not  close  their  mouth.
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nvenkatramani
IAH New Member
IAH New Member



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 66
Location: Chennai

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Guys,
 
 Hats  of  to  all  of  you.    The  passion  burns  strong  even  when  we  face  adversity.  The  things  i  have  done  ,  .....  I  have  staked  out  Shops  in  anticipation  of    Some  fish  I  need  ,  blindly  reached    for  my  pocket  without    cross  checking  the  price  asked    ,  downloaded  exotic  recipes  from  the  net  ,    Created  havoc  in  the  kitchen    making  those    ,  and  grabbed  freezer  space  for  extra  food,  medicines    to  the  point  of    making  a  nuisance  of  myself  at  home.
 
 All  for  what  ,  for  the  belief  that    we  are  trying  our  level  best  to  create  the  conditions        ,  of  the  fishes  original  habitat  .  Well  ,  when  the  realization  hits  that  this  fish  is  unnatural    or  that  you  cannot  hope  to  get  any    fry  because  the  fish  were  "Jazzed  up  "  is  frustrating.  It  is  the  feeling  of  being  cheated  that  bugs  me.
 
 Well    I    know  that  when  the    passionate  demand  changes  then  the  change  inevitably  happens.  
 
 Narendra
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beta
Committed Member of IAH
Committed Member of IAH



Joined: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 4259
Location: Chennai

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hormones  and  Hybrids  have  always  been  a  hot  topic  of  discussion  in  the  aquarium  circle  and  I  see  no  end  to  it.
 There  are  some  good  points  that  our  members  have  raised  but  if  you  notice  the  fishes  which  are  mostly  hormoned  are  fishes  that  develop  colour  on  maturity  like  Aulonacara.  They  are  dull  grey  when  they  are  young  so  I  really  doubt  if  they  could  be  sold  if  they  were  not  hormoned  /  Colour  enhanced.
 This  is  an  ethical  issue  that  can  only  be  decided  by  the  Seller/Breeder.
 I  try  to  stay  away  from  hybrids  and  colour  enhanced  fishes  as  much  as  possible  and  also  try  to  advice  fellow  aquarists  on  this  aspect.
 If  somebody  has  indepth  understanding  of  hormones,  their  effects  and  disadvantages  I  would  prompt  them  to  write  an  article  on  it.  This  could  be  the  first  step  to  educating  our  members.
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