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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Poor man's reef
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Poor man's reef
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Ranjith,  let  me  elaborate  your  valid  point  here  for  everyone  to  understand  the  school  of  thought!!
 I  agree  it  is  stability  as  with  every  other  parameter  that  is  important!!  
 Lets  discuss  this  point  of  view  and  understand  one  thing,  though  we  believe  and  popular  literature  states  that  a  reef  aquarium  should  be  maintained  between  the  range  of  24*C  to  27*C.  We  should  also  understand  one  more  thing........Coral  reefs  are  naturally  found  only  in  the  tropical  zone  of  the  planet!  why?
 Reason  behind  this  is  that  most  of  the  reef  life  likes  to  bask  in  the  tropical  sun....now  this  tropical  Sun  comes  along  with  another  freebie......heat!
 
 According  to  a  survey  of  about  1000  reefs  printed  in  Eric  Borneman's  book  'Aquarium  Corals'  the  average  temp.  of  all  tested  reefs  all  over  the  world  was,  28*C  with  the  minimum  of  21*C  and  a  maximum  of  30*C!  Eric  also  goes  a  step  further  and  states  a  minimum  and  maximum  tolerance  limits  of  corals  and  you  will  not  believe  this  but,  the  minimum  tolerable  temp.  is  stated  at  4*C  and  a  maximum  stated  at  a  wooping  45*C!  However,  such  minimum  and  maximum  temp.  cannot  be  tolerated  more  than  a  few  minutes  so  cannot  be  considered  as  benchmarks  by  us  captive  reef  keepers!
 
 So,  it  does  state  that  a  gradual  fluctuation  is  indeed  there  even  in  natural  reefs.  Yes,  sudden  changes  and  frequent  fluctuations  are  stress  causing  factors.  But,  gradual  climatic  rise  and  fall  of  mercury  is  not  to  worry  about.  There  are  people  as  Borenman  suggests  who  have  benefitted  from  maintaining  the  temp.  on  the  higher  side  at  about  29*C  and  have  recorded  faster  growth  in  their  corals  (please  understand  one  thing  here,  people  who  have  done  this  have  very  precise  temp.  maintainence  and  monitoring  systems  -  kind  of  don't  try  this  at  home  stuff  if  you  don't  have  such  precise  gadgets  -  play  safe!)
 The  only  logical  reason  I  see  about  the  popular  choice  of  majority  of  authors  on  the  temp.  to  be  maintained  on  a  low  side  is  that  it  gives  us  a  margin  of  error  because  higher  temp.  means  a  lot  of  other  associated  problems  like  lower  dissolved  oxygen  content,  lower  pH,  higher  metabolism  =  more  bio-load  etc.  etc.
 My  take  on  the  whole  issue  of  temp.  control  in  a  captive  coral  reef  is  to  really  understand  where  your  coral  has  come  from  and  try  to  replicate  the  average  annual  temperature  of  that  coral  reef!  The  logic  is  simple........your  coral  will  feel  'at  home'!
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ranjithc
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Nauzer,
 actually  i  have  read  a  survey  of  India  reefs  that  the  temp  actually  AVG  around  29C  Â Chuckle  
 
 Niothing  against  the  points  you  mentioned.  i  agree  and  second  them  Â Smile  
 
 however,  regarding  all  these  tips  n  tricks,
 one  thing  i  learned  with  bitterness  is  that  you  cant  trust  everything  ppl  mention  on  the  net.
 
 some  people  advise  adding  vodka.  yes  vodka  in  the  tank  to  promote  coralline.
 
 also  it  is  critical  to  FULLY  understand  the  fundamental  before  trying  some  of  the  stunts  we  read  Sad  
 
 I  once  read  that  sugar  based  calcium  would  promote  coralline.
 stupid  me  mistook  and  though  if  i  mix  sugar  with  calcium  would  do  the  trick.
 guess  what  happ  when  the  carbon  mixed  in  the  tank  (maybe  1  spoon  of  sugar  per  100  liters  of  tank  water  ration)
 
 in  the  morning,  tank  was  begining  to  be  a  bit  cloudy.
 I  turned  on  the  lights  and  water  became  milky.
 
 entire  tank  was  wiped  out  before  i  could  understand  what  happ.
 
 no  one,  not  even  my  LFS  knew  what  was  the  reason  as  noone  percieved  adding  a  minute  amount  of  harmless  sugar  can  have  such  reactions.
 
 turns  out  the  item  under  consideration  was  calcium  polygloconate.
 asin  sugar  based  CA  Â ROFL  
 
 we  did  find  the  cause  later.
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ranjithc
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Coral  reef,
 where  are  you  based  at?
 am  interested  to  know  since  chillers  are  available  at  10K.
 i  hope  you  are  meaning  the  nano  ones  of  1/20  hp  ?
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psimhan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 There  was  a  thread  I  put  up  a  while  ago  about  dosing  Vodka  in  your  reef  as  a  denitrator.  Search  for  Vodka  on  IAH.  Sugar  and  methanol  are  also  dosed  in  denitrators.  
 What  this  does  in  principle,  is  feed  the  denitrifying  bacteria  so  that  their  quatitites  increase.
 The  key  to  these  is  to  start  out  with  very  small  dosages,  as  the  population  of  denitrifying  bacteria  in  your  tank  is  lower  and  increase  the  dosage  gradually.
 There  is  a  guy  on  RC  who  used  this  method.  I'll  see  if  i  can  point  you  to  the  thread.
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
actually  i  have  read  a  survey  of  India  reefs  that  the  temp  actually  AVG  around  29C                

 Agreed!
 I  would  say  people  who  don't  employ  chillers  would  have  a  hard  time  to  maintain  29*C  also  in  the  hot  Indian  summer!
 Moral  of  the  long  story  is  that  the  average  temp.  is  to  be  considered  as  a  limit  and  not  a  constant  factor!  I  am  myself  not  in  favor  of  a  constant  water  temp.  the  whole  year  as  the  seasons  also  play  an  important  role  in  either  slowing  down  or  speeding  up  metabolism  of  all  reef  life.  So  the  average  of  29*C  that  you  mention  should  be  your  Summer  peak  and  not  your  constant  temp.  for  the  whole  year!
 
                                                 
Quote:                
I  once  read  that  sugar  based  calcium  would  promote  coralline.  
 stupid  me  mistook  and  though  if  i  mix  sugar  with  calcium  would  do  the  trick.  
 guess  what  happ  when  the  carbon  mixed  in  the  tank  (maybe  1  spoon  of  sugar  per  100  liters  of  tank  water  ration)                

 Yes,  I  know  this  and  was  in  Mumbai  when  this  happened  so  am  aware  but,  did  not  know  it  happened  in  your  tank.  Actually  we  three  reefers  were  partying!  -  Me,  Apu  and  Rajesh  (tigger)  when  Apu's  mobile  rang  and  Amod  conveyed  the  mis-hap.
 @Pradeep,
 I  guess  Ranjith  means  that  people  suggest  vodka  supplements  in  the  tank  not  in  the  filter!  (I  guess  Nemo  will  run  away  from  home  again  if  he  knew  what  is  in  store  for  him!!!)
 The  methanol  reactor's  logic  is  basically  the  same  as  that  of  a  de-nitrator!  so  why  take  a  chance?  People  who  employ  such  systems  have  very  precise  equiptment  with  sound  knowledge  of  chemistry  -  something  better  left  for  the  experts  not  for  average  hobbyists  like  us.
 Another  option  that  I  had  considered  was  sulphur  de-nitrator.  But,  to  be  very  frank  I  have  never  faced  a  nitrate  problem  so  severe  that  would  convince  me  to  employ  such  systems.  I  guess  very  large  tanks  where  synthetic  salt  mix  is  used  and  water  changes  are  expensive  such  systems  are  employed  but,  the  average  home  aquaria  -  of-course,  if  you  want  to  go  ahead  and  do  it  is  a  different  story  but,  generally  does  not  need  such  systems.
 @Ranjith,
 I  fully  understand  what  you  are  trying  to  say  and  agree  with  you  on  the  'Reef  Guruism'  factor.  I  would  just  mention  one  thing  here  that  if  it  is  fine  as  it  is  why  experiment  just  because  someone  tells  you  to  do  so  unless  of-course  you  are  doing  something  wrong.
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CoralReef
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

                                                   
ranjithc  wrote  (View  Post):                
Coral  reef,
 where  are  you  based  at?
 am  interested  to  know  since  chillers  are  available  at  10K.
 i  hope  you  are  meaning  the  nano  ones  of  1/20  hp  ?                

 
 Im  based  in  Dubai  but  will  be  visiting  chennai  in  2  days...
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CoralReef
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Its  all  good  to  watch  your  temperature  in  a  closed  environment  but  look  at  what  our  corals  and  inverts  have  adapted  to....taken  in  the  Maldives...
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ranjithc
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 heee
 nice  one  back  Lyndon.
 actually  looks  more  like  the  Fromia  Indica  with  the  black  tips.
 
 Couple  of  point  i  want  to  add  which  noone  seems  to  have  mentioned.
 
 Cost  of  livestock  replacement
 i  think  we  spend  good  amount  of  money  because  we  have  mortalities.
 this  can  be  reduced.
 
 For  example,  putting  in  a  firefish  with  big  boys  will  sooner  or  later  lead  to  its  death.  how  many  cleaner  shrimp,  starfish,  clownfish  etc  do  die  due  to  incompatibility  and  other  reasons.
 not  to  mention  the  corals,  polyps,  shrooms  that  die.
 
 What  if  we  keep  only  stuff  that  is  proven  to  work?
 for  e.g.  maybe  a  yellow  tang  instead  of  an  exotic  long  nose  butterfly  or  a  fairy  wrass  species.
 OR  a  leather  coral  instead  of  the  ever  gree  Anemone.
 
 This  will  offcourse  mandate  people  to  read  a  lot  before  purchasing.
 
 
 Another  area  we  can  save  cost  is  the  running  cost  of  lighting  MH/VHO  etc.
 am  having  LPS,  shrooms  n  zoos  with  PL  (36  watt)  and  grows  quiet  well.
 I  agree  MH  is  beneficial  but  my  point  is  that  does  everyone  need  all  those  watts  per  gallon  rules?
 
 What  about  using  gravity  whereever  possible  instead  of  pumps?
 like  a  surge  instead  of  costly  tunze  pumps.
 
 Another  area  to  save  costs  is  to  use  local  substitutes  for  additives  (a  favourite  DIY)  use  baking  soda  instead  of  reef  buff  of  500rs.
 potassium  iodate  for  iodine,  epsom  salt  for  MG  etc  etc.
 I  think  people  do  not  test  religiously  when  experimenting  with  additives  and  overdose  or  underdose.  Result  is  problems.  
 Then  the  whole  additive  is  banned  from  the  mind  for  fear  of  repeat  problems.
 
 Lastly,  one  more  point  to  mind.
 when  buying  critical  stuff,  dont  skimp  cost.  For  example,  buying  a  good  pump  for  return  from  sump  instead  of  a  cheap  one  which  fails  constantly  or  adds  latent  heat  to  the  water.
 good  quality  skimmer,  
 Good  quality  live  rock  instead  of  baserock  and  DSB  for  NNR.
 
 All  the  LFS  will  be  issuing  supari  against  me  for  sayin  all  the  above  Â Chuckle  
 Just  kidding  friends  Â Thumb Up


Last edited by ranjithc on Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shankar
Committed Member of IAH
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Joined: Nov 19, 2003
Posts: 3719
Location: Chennai

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Great  pics.  Inspite  of  the  acropora  being  out  of  water  during  the  low  tide,  it  wont  dry  up.  The  tiny  cups  helps  in  the  capillary  action.  Also  they  have  a  very  unique  gel  like  membrane  that  keeps  them  moist  and  virtually  covered.
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aquascapes
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Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
What  if  we  keep  only  stuff  that  is  proven  to  work?  
 for  e.g.  maybe  a  yellow  tang  instead  of  an  exotic  long  nose  butterfly  or  a  fairy  wrass  species.  
 OR  a  leather  coral  instead  of  the  ever  gree  Anemone.                

 all  these  points  are  taken  care  of  in  http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3533&sid=aa4bdbc1c57a8ed1989d3afc6bf292a0
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cokeamod
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Regular Poster on IAH



Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 821
Location: Thane, Mumbai

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
What  if  we  keep  only  stuff  that  is  proven  to  work?                  

 
 Ranjithji,  I  guess  NOW  you  will  definitely  agree  with  what  i  have  been  saying  since  the  last  year  and  a  half!!
 DO  NOT  keep  anemones!!   Chuckle
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ranjithc
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Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 164
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Poor man's reef Reply with quote

 Nauzer,
 Thanks  for  the  link.  Great  info  there  !!
 I  just  wanted  to  mention  because  we  often  forget  the  obvious  point  and  go  around  looking  for  complex  answers.
 
 Amodji
 I  still  think  my  anemone  was  sucessfull  in  the  big  tank   Chuckle  
 however,  din  work  in  the  smal  tank.
 anyways,  you  are  correct  in  that  risk  is  very  high  of  mortality  Sad
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