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Complete Co2 system at a steal price!!!
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Madan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 What  freezing?
 
 Rocky,  have  you  ever  seen  a  CO2  cylinder  being  filled?  What  is  this  cylinder  filled  full?  Every  CO2  cylinder  is  only  filled  to  2/3rd  (66.6  %)  it's  volume  with  liquid  and  never  ever  more.  The  weight  of  the  CO2  in  the  cylinder  (  2,  3,  9,  22  kgs  etc.,)  always  corresponds  to  the  2/3  filling  ratio  by  volume.  Now  what  is  75-80%  full  cylinder?
 
 Check  other  threads  on  CO2  where  I  have  given  the  reasons  for  doing  for  this  and  the  safety  involved.
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Anandaqu
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Hi  all,
 
 Sorry  for  entering  this  post  late  as  I  was  tied  up  over  the  week-end....
 
 Arvind,  Honey  and  I  had  quite  an  adventure  at  Chor  Bazaar...this  guy  has  a  lot  of  cylinders...all  dirt  cheap...
 
 HOWEVER,  I  have  major  concerns  about  safety,  especially  since  I  will  be  keeping  the  cylinder  in  the  living  room...Could  someone  please  answer  these  questions:
 
 1)  Arvind  and  I  took  the  cylinder  to  a  proper  cylinder  making  unit  in  Sewri.  They  saw  the  cylinder  and  told  us  it  had  to  be  sent  for  inspection  and  that  without  a  certificate,  no  one  will  refill  this  cylinder.  They  also  said  that  these  were  disposable  cylinders  and  the  government  has  ordered  them  to  be  phased  out  and  that  refilling  them  is  a  big  risk....Given  these,  is  it  safe  to  use  this  cylinder?
 
 Is  there  any  risk  of  an  explosion  or  accident  at  the  time  of  refilling?
 Is  there  a  risk  of  an  accident  during  transport?
 Is  there  even  a  remote  chance  of  any  accident  when  I  am  using  the  cylinder  in  the  livingroom?
 
 Is  it  safe  to  keep  the  cylinder  in  a  nearby  balcony  that  receives  bright  sunlight  3-4  hours  a  day?  (and  use  a  10  feet  long  Co2  tube  to  the  aquarium)?
 
 Besides  removing  the  internal  tube  (as  advised  by  Madan)  are  there  any  other  precautions  I  should  take?
 
 Thanks  in  advance.....I  just  want  tobe  112%  sure  about  this  whole  thing!!!!
 
 Anand
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DJ_Rocky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Hmmm,  surprised!
 
 The  guy  who  refills  CO2  Cylinder  in  Kolkata  told  me  that  we  have  to  send  the  cylinders  or  Orissa  plant  for  refilling  because  We  are  not  able  to  refill  the  cylinders  100%  because  we  dont  have  such  setups/equiments!
 
 However,  if  you  wish  to  have  the  cylinders  refill  by  us,  you  will  get  75-80%  cylinder  refill  only.
 
 And  for  freezing,  they  said,  we  have  to  freeze  the  cylinder  for  refilling!
 
 Confused  Confused
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Madan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Rocky  this  is  what  happens  to  a  newbie  who  goes  to  an  LFS  to  buy  fish.
 
 What  goes  round  will  come  around.  Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Anand  there  is  nothing  like  "Disposable"  CO2  Fire  Extinguisher  Cylinder.
 
 That  fellow  is  bullshitting  you  straight  up!  No  Govt.  can  give  a  license  to  make  Disposable  "pressurised  containers".  Period.  He  wants  to  sell  his  ware  that  all.
 
 Second,  when  buying  from  a  place  like  chor  bazaar,  you  don't  know  to  what  handling  the  cylinder  has  been  subjected,  so  a  hydrostatic  pressure  test  of  the  cylinder  will  give  you  peace  of  mind.  They  will  attach  a  strain  gauge  to  the  circumference  of  the  cylinder,  fill  the  cylinder  with  water  and  raise  the  pressure  to  about  200  bar,  and  check  if  the  expansion  of  the  cylinder  is  with  in  limits.  This  test  costs  a  bit,  and  it  negates  the  cheap  price  you  paid  at  chor  bazaar.  The  test  is  valid  for  10  years.
 
 As  long  as  your  newly  refilled  cylinder  is  kept  below  32  Deg  C  there  will  not  be  a  problem  ever.  
 
 That  cylinder  looks  pretty  solid  to  me,  however  since  you  got  it  at  chor  bazaar,  check  for  a  punch  stamp  on  the  cylinder,  it  will  give  the  date  of  the  last  pressure  test  and  the  test  pressure,  check  for  any  dents/damages/pitting  due  to  corrosion  (ignore  pitting  less  than  1mm  depth)  to  the  body.
 
 If  you  are  still  in  doubt,  get  the  cylinder  tested.  
 
 People  refilling  the  cylinder  are  worried  about  their  lives  too,  so  they  will  want  a  good  cylinder  to  handle.  Calling  them  disposable  cylinders  is  however  taking  it  too  far.
 
 As  far  as  keeping  the  cylinder  in  the  balcony  make  sure  direct  sunlight  does  not  fall  on  the  cylinder,  keep  it  protected  from  direct  sunlight.
 
 All  said  and  done,  one  can  never  be  too  safe,  send  the  cylinder  for  inspection  and  sleep  well.   Very Happy
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Severumkid
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

                                                   
Madan  wrote  (View  Post):                
Rocky  this  is  what  happens  to  a  newbie  who  goes  to  an  LFS  to  buy  fish.
 
 What  goes  round  will  come  around.  Very Happy                

 
   ROFL   ROFL   ROFL   Thumb Up
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Severumkid
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 whats  the  point  in  trying  to  buy  cylinders  from  chor  bazzar  and  loosing  your  sleep  in  bargain.  You  could  have  bought  it  from  a  reputed  shop  in  your  locality.  Would  have  costed  bit  more  but  you  would  have  been  100%  sure  of  the  quality.
 
 Just  my  opinion,  though.  No  offense  meant.
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Anandaqu
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 no  offense  taken....the  cost  of  this  cyliner  was  one-sixth  the  cost  of  a  new  cylinder...that  was  too  sweet  a  bargain  to  ignore!!!!!!
 
 Thanks  a  ton  Madan...I  will  get  the  cylinder  tested....that  should  give  me  some  peace...
 
 anand
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rexfrancis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 I  found  some  information  when  I  was  very  concerned  about  keeping  a  Co2  cylinder  in  the  living  room.
 
 As  per  some  of  the  BS  standards  like  BS5045  (  There  are  various  standards).  Markings  on  the  neck  of  the  cylinder  may  give  vital  information  on  the  built  of  the  cylinder.
 
 The  below  is  the  marking  of  my  Cylinder  
 
 CO2  â€“  2,  TP250,  V  3.0,  W6.00,  BS5045/1,  2007/6  
 
 One  of  the  markings  I  found  on  my  cylinder  is  TP250,  which  is  Test  Pressure  -  250  Bar.  What  I  have  understood  is,  This  cylinder  has  been  pressure  tested  with  250  Bar  pressure  which  is  3600  PSI.  Most  of  the  cylinders  designed  with  rupture  disk  or  release  valve  which  would  operate  at  90%  of  the  TP.  
 
 In  your  case,  You  may  check  for  marking  on  the  cylinder  to  understand  better  about  the  cylinder.
 
 Also  I  had  revived  the  old  post  related  to  the  same  topic  some  time  in  March.
 
 http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=83119#83119
 
 It  was  agreed  that  60  kg/cm2  is  what  the  normal  pressure  of  a  fully  filled  cylinder  in  ambient  temperature,  My  Dual  Gauge  Regulator  shows  cylinder  pressure  of  1000PSI  or  70  kg/cm2  at  ambient  temperature.   (  Any  time  of  the  day)
 
 I  have  compared  Tarweight  &  fully  filled  cylinder  weight,  The  cylinder  is  filled  with  only  with  2  KGs  of  CO2,  there  is  no  overfill.  (  Total  Cylinder  Volume  is  3  Lts),  it  is  filled  with  .75%  of  its  volume  capacity.
 
 I  am  curious  to  know  why  it  has  been  agreed  60  kg/cm2  is  what  the  pressure  of  the  cylinder  should  be  and  anything  over  70kg/cm2  is   hydraulically  pressurised.
 
 I  am  sure  neither  it  is  hydralically  pressurised  nor  the  guage  is  wrong.
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rexfrancis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 About  disposable  Co2  cylinder:
 
 Yesterday  I  saw  a  Co2  container  in  one  of  the  LFS  in  London,  some  thing  like  a  room  perfume  spary,  the  LFS  was  mentioning  that  it  is  a  disposable  Co2  container,  meant  for  small  cube  tanks  .
 
 It  is  like  a  perfume  spray,  not  like  a  cylinder,  May  be  your  LFS  might  have  refered  this  type  of  thing  as  "Disposable"
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Your  gauge  is  wrong.  That  is  our  trouble,  poor  quality  equipment  with  no  quality  control.
 
 How  did  you  measure  75%  of  volume  capacity?  The  only  way  you  can  find  level  of  liquid  CO2  in  a  cylinder  is  with  a  radioactive  level  measuring  instrument.
 
 58  Kg/cm2  -  60  Kg/cm2  will  be  the  pressure  exerted  by  CO2  liquid  to  maintain  equilibrium  in  the  cylinder  at  ambient  temperature.  This  pressure  will  remain  constant  as  long  as  there  is  liquid  CO2  in  the  cylinder,  when  all  the  Liquid  has  evaporated  (consumed)  and  only  gas  remains  in  the  cylinder  the  pressure  will  begin  to  drop.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Hi  Madan
 
 I  have  checked  the  pressure  with  2  regulators,  both  read  the  same  reading,  that's  wjy  I  specified  ,  gauage  is  not  wrong.  Will  check  with  Friend's  regulator  as  well..
 
 About  volume,  
 
 I  thought  1  Kg  Co2  =  0.9860  L.  (  I  am  not  sure  at  what  ref)
 
 So  by  comparing  TAR  weight,  I  thought  it  is  approx  filled  only  with  2  Lts  of  Co2.
 
 My  cylinder  always  showed  1000  PSI,  before  it  starts  droping  at  the  end  of  the  gas,   the  supplier  also  said  it  should  show  1000  PSI  when  the  gas  is  full.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Your  Cylinder  volume  is  3  liters  and  as  per  your  calculation  you  have  2  liters  of  liquid  CO2.  The  ratio  is  2/3.
 
 Not  75%  which  is  3/4.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Yes  Madan,  
 
 You  are  correct,  my  cylinder  was  filled  with  2  :  3  ratio.
 
 What  I  meant  by  75  %  was  a  maximum  filling  ratio  for  CO2  cylinders  as  per  standards.  (  I  do  not  remember  the  standard  number).
 
 Will  try  to  figure  out  if  the  gauage  is  wrong.
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Madan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Co2 Cylinders Reply with quote

 Francis  the  Maximum  allowed  filling  ratio  for  CO2  cylinders  as  per  any  International  standard  is  2/3.  Never  ever  anything  else.  You  have  mistaken  the  ratio  with  that  for  some  other  gas.
 
 Why  that  is  so,  is  an  entire  lesson  about  Gas  laws  and  physics  and  is  not  for  this  forum.  Very Happy
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