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Latest Acquisition
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Just  checked  Day's  O.D.  and  it  mentions  14  branched  rays  in  the  dorsal.   Wall Bang  Looks  like  it  may  be  nigrescens  after  all  Very Happy
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Ashwin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 The  review  work  on  this  species  (Labeo  nigrescens)  was  done  using  4  specimens,  out  of  which  only  one  specimen  was  from  the  type  locality  as  per  "Revision  of  the  genus  Labeo  Cuvier  from  the  Indian  region"  by  Jayram.
 
   The  one  specimen  used  was  supposedly  collected  by  Francis  day  in  1870.
 
   I  will  bring  to  the  party  a  snap  of  a  dead  one.
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hayath_dyno
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Very  interesting  thread  here  Smile  
 Adding  my  two  cents.  The  fish  was  sent  out  kindly  by  Andrew  
 
 This  was  IDed  possibly  as  H.  kurali  during  an  earlier  discussion  on  Petfrd  by  Steve  (TheDarkOne)
 
 The  whole  fish  with  the  smaller  rosy  barb  for  comparison  
 
 
 Closeup  of  the  mouth  region  which  shows  the  "two  pair  of  barbels"
 
 
 
 
 A  shot  of  the  anal  fin
 
 
 From  Dr.  Rema  Devi's  paper
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
A  Large  barb  with  two  pair  of  barbels,  a  weak  and  articulated  lats  undivided  dorsal  fin  ray,  41-43  scales  along  the  lateral  line  and  generally  with  caudal  tinged  black                

 
 Also  to  note  -  
 1.  The  fish  has  a  very  distinct  "protractible"  mouth  which  opens  up  downards  when  feeding
 2.  There  is  a  "ring"  like  marking  just  behind  the  operculum  
 3.  Much  more  full  bodied  than  any  of  the  curmuca  seen  (in  person  /  in  pictures)
 
 All  these  do  lean  towards  the  above  being  H.  kurali
 
 Ashwin's  lineup  (sadly  dead)  makes  it  all  the  more  interesting!  Smile  
 Will  be  following  this  keenly...
 
 Cheers,
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Marc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Hayath,  if  thats  a  H.  kurali..........thanks  that  is  the  first  authentic  one  am  seeing  Chuckle  
 
 One  more  concern....In  the  original  description  Menon  &  Rema  Devi  1995  state  it  is  found  only  in  west  flowing  drainage,  but  Menon  in  his  1999  work  states  that  it  is  found  also  in  tambraparni  (east  flowing).
 
 Now  I  would  like  to  know  what  is  the  difference  between  H.  curmuca  and  H.  kurali  as  both  have  black  tipped  caudal  fins.....The  difference  is  not  very  clear  in  the  1995  paper.
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Ashwin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Join  the  party  Hayath
 
 Great  to  see  this  fish  live.  .  .  i  think,  the  fish  in  the  snap  is  H  kurali  as  per  rema  devi's  paper.  If  think  all  the  characters  hold  good.  Good  to  see  one  alive  and  kicking.
 
 So  any  Idea  on  the  locality  were  the  fish  was  collected  from???
 
 Now  as  Marcus  pointed  out.  .  Dr.  Rema  devi  does  say  how  to  differentiate  H  kurali  from  H  curmuca  except  for  the  drainage  difference.
 
 I  have  seen  curmuca  like  fish  from  numerous  rivers.  .  .  now  will  have  check  river  by  river,  One  could  be  true  curmuca.  But  now  will  need  to  find  a  live  H  curmuca  from  type  locality,  to  start  solving  the  puzzle  from  the  beginning.  But  does  anyone  feel  the  fish  i  posted  earlier  (with  the  tuberceles)  is  different  from  H  kurali  posted  by  Hayath???
 
 The  fish  i  thought  was  H  thomasii  looks  similar  to  H  jerdoni  in  structure  but  has  only  red  coloration  in  the  fins  but  no  black  on  the  dorsal.  .  .and  is  found  along  with  H  jerdoni,  so  it  cannot  be  a  color  variant  of  H  jerdoni.  But  what  i  posted  in  the  compilation  of  dead  fishes  (H  thomasii  as  per  marcus)  is  not  the  same  one.  If  one  is  H  thomasii  what  is  the  other??
 
 Now  we  have  two  fishes  that  need  a  positive  ID
 
 Original  plate  of  H  curmuca  by  Hamilton  is  attached.  .  .  it  is  open  source,  i  hope  it  is  ok
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 A  few  more  points  to  note...
 
 An  eco-morph  of  H.  kurali  is  there  in  kerala  without  black  caudal  tip  (Menon  &  Rema  Devi  1995)  just  like  the  H.  curmuca  drawn  by  Hamilton.  
 
 H.  curmuca  also  has  38-42  lateral  line  scales  (Jayaram  1999)  like  Hayaths  picture.
 
 Here  is  a  Hypselobarbus  from  my  private  collection.  I  collected  it  from  Tambraparni.
 
 
 
 Two  pairs  of  barbels,  32  lateral  line  scales.  The  only  Hypselobarbus  with  less  than  34  scales  is  H.  thomassi  but  it  is  restricted  to  Canara  and  Kerala.  So  I  guess  this  is  one  more  species  that  need  clarification....  Smile
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Ashwin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Probably  we  are  running  round  in  circles.  .  .  marcus  you  say  we  have  H  kolus  and  H  curmuca/kurali,  two  different  species  from  my  dead  fish  compilations  (lets  ignore  H  thomasii  for  now).  
 
 Since  they  are  from  the  same  river  system  .  .  .  so  we  have  three  combinations  possible
 
 (A)  H  curmuca  (if  H  kolus  is  a  synonum)  and  H  kurali  together.  .  makes  them  two  valid  species
 
 (b)  H  kolus  as  valid  species  and    H  kurali
 
 (C)  H  kolus  as  valid  species  and  H  curmuca  (if  H  kurali  is  just  variant  of  H  curmuca)
 
 Which  is  most  probable  combination???  only  my  freezer  and  books  can  tell.
 
 The  thomasii  like  fish  needs  to  be  ascertained.  .  .  as  the  locals  have  different  name  for  H  thomasii  and  different  for  this  one,  they  also  add  that  this  fish  is  very  rare  and  is  difficult  to  catch,  they  also  say  it  grows  upto  15  to  20  kgs.  .  .  is  there  a  remote  chance  that  it  is  species  that  has  been  overlooked  and  only  the  scale  count  match  thomasii???
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Marc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

                                                   
Ashwin  wrote  (View  Post):                
(A)  H  curmuca  (if  H  kolus  is  a  synonum)  and  H  kurali  together.  .  makes  them  two  valid  species
                 

 
 They  cannot  be  synonyms  as  H.  kolus  has  one  pair  of  barbel  and  H.  curmuca  has  two  pairs.  Either  your  fish  is  H.  kolus  or  H.  curmuca......only  your  freezer  can  tell  Very Happy  
 
 
                                                 
Ashwin  wrote  (View  Post):                

 (b)  H  kolus  as  valid  species  and    H  kurali
                 

 
 Then  what  about  H.  curmuca?
 
 
                                                 
Ashwin  wrote  (View  Post):                

 (C)  H  kolus  as  valid  species  and  H  curmuca  (if  H  kurali  is  just  variant  of  H  curmuca)
                 

 
 As  an  individual  I  feel  this  is  the  most  practical  combination....................but  I  am  a  krill  in  front  of  a  blue  whale.
 
 
                                                 
Ashwin  wrote  (View  Post):                

 is  there  a  remote  chance  that  it  is  species  that  has  been  overlooked  and  only  the  scale  count  match  thomasii???
                 

 
 Sure  why  not??  so  many  species  are  overlooked  like  that  Smile
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 What  confusion?
 
 H.  curmuca:  West  flowing  rivers,  one  pair  of  barbels.
 
 H.  kurali:  West  flowing  rivers,  two  pairs  of  barbels.
 
 H.  kolus:  Krishna  basin,  one  pair  of  barbels.
 
 
 
                                                 
Ashwin  wrote  (View  Post):                
"Revision  of  the  genus  Labeo  Cuvier  from  the  Indian  region"  by  Jayram.                

 
 Which  is  where  he  states  nigrescens  has  11  branched  rays  in  the  dorsal.  I  wonder  if  there  is  a  third  species  out  there?
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
 I  will  bring  to  the  party  a  snap  of  a  dead  one.                

 
 The  third  fish  (next  to  the  labeo)  probably  is  H.  pulchellus.
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Ashwin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Thanks  guys  .  .  .
 
 So  ok  the  Barbels  will  be  way  forward.  .  .  Hayath  would  be  H  kurali  
 
 There  is  a  good  chance  there  another  black  Labeo  out  there.
 
 H  pulchellus.  .  .  interesting,  i  assumed  it  was  O  nashii
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Here  is  one  that  I  collected  from  Bhavani  drainage  in  Satyamangalam.
 One  pair  of  barbels  and  think  to  be  as  kolus
 
 
 
 
 
 
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hayath_dyno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 The  mystery  deepens  then,  we  started  off  with  one  fish  to  ID  and  we  got  atleast  two  Smile  
 All  the  more  reason  why  "Documenting"  pictures/snapshots  of  fish  becomes  important!
 
 Ashwin,
    This  was  the  same  specimen  collected  by  you  which  then  found  its  way  into  my  tank.  Thank  you  Smile   Since  you  collected  this,  a  little  more  information  on  the  location  and  habitat?
    
 Marc,
    The  discussion  earlier  did  "tend"  more  towards  a  kurali  more  than  a  curmuca,  moreso  with  the  more  "full  bodied"  fish  and  other  characteristics.
 
 The  fish  is  in  one  of  the  outdoor  tanks  filled  with  green  water,  let  me  try  getting  some  better  closeups  and  also  see  if  there  are  any  tubercles  visible  now
 
 Rahul,
    So  the  fish  I  posted  would  be  kurali  then!
 
 Liking  this  discussion,  also  shows  how  little  is  well  documented  about  our  fish  -  from  the  land  of  snakeheads  and  barbs  Very Happy  
 
 Cheers,
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Hey  Madhu,
 
 Thats  a  nice  pic....  The  fish  that  I  have  uploaded  from  Tambraparni  also  looked  just  like  yours  when  alive.  Mine  has  32  lateral  line  scales.  your  fish  seems  to  have  more.  Just  check  the  rostral  fold  cause  the  rostral  pair  of  barbels  are  very  small  and  hidden.  
 
 Pic  of  H.  jerdoni  provided  by  a  friend
 
 
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Location: Chennai

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Hey  Guys  I  just  spoke  to  Dr.  Rema  Devi............
 
 The  difference  is  simple  like  Rahul  pointed  out
 
 H.  curmuca  has  one  pair  of  barbel  (as  per  O.D)
 
 H.  kurali  has  two  pairs  
 
 So  I  guess  Hayath  has  a  H.  kurali...........now  somebody  show  me  a  H.  curmuca  Chuckle
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Joined: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 4259
Location: Chennai

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Latest Acquisition Reply with quote

 Dear  Sirs,
 I  have  attached  a  pic  your  kind  perusal.  Please  elucidate  what  fish  it  is.
 
 
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