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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Fulvic Acid Chelation
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Fulvic Acid Chelation

 
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AbhishekD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Hi  …
 
 While  Madan  is  riding  the  waves,  experts  who  use  fulvic  acid  chelated  micro  nutrient  mix,  can  you  please  share  how  much  fulvic  acid  is  required  for  chelating  the  micro  nutrients.  I  did  some  homework(based  on  discussions  in  IAH  and  tombarreport)   -  to  prepare  1  kg  micronutrient  mix  on  the  lines  of  CSM+B,  the  calculations  are:  -
 
 Element  and  its  Salt--CSM+B  ratios--TRACE  ELEMENT  IN  GM--TRACE  ELEMENT  %  IN  COMPOUND--TOTAL  COMPOUND  IN  GM--COMPOUND  NAME
 FE(FESO4.7H2O)-------------8%------------80.0000-------------------20.0871%-------------------------------398.2656--------------Ferrous   sulphate   heptahydrate  
 MN(MnSO4*H2O)------------2%------------20.0000-------------------32.5045%-------------------------------61.5299---------------Manganese   Sulphate   
 CU(CuSO4.5H2O)-----------0.10%---------1.0000--------------------25.4505%-------------------------------3.9292----------------Copper   Sulphate   
 ZN(ZnSO4.7H2O)------------0.40%---------4.0000--------------------22.7374%-------------------------------17.5922---------------Zinc   Sulphate   
 B(Na2B8O13.4H2O)---------1.40%---------14.0000-------------------20.9668%-------------------------------66.7722---------------sodium   octaborate   tetrahydrate  
 MO(Na2MoO4.2H2O)--------0.06%---------0.6000--------------------39.6587%-------------------------------1.5129----------------Sodium   Molybdate   
 MG(MgSO4.7H2O)-----------1.70%---------17.0000-------------------9.8610%--------------------------------172.3963--------------Magnesium   Sulphate   
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total-------721.9983
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Remainder  in  KG----278.0017
 
 
 Remainder  in  KG  is  the  weight  of  Fulvic  acid  to  be  used.  Let  me  know  if  this  278  gm  of  fulvic  acid  will  chelate  metal  salts  weighing  722gms?
 
 GM  =  gram
 KG  =  Kilogram
 
 Regards,
 Abhishek
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 To  perform  chelation,  you  need  the  mix  the  salts  in  ratio  of  their  molar  masses.
 Molar  mass  of  EDTA  is  292.24  and  molar  mass  of  Iron  sulphate  (hepta  hydrate)  is  278.
 So  for  398  gm  of  FEso4.7h20  you  will  need  
 (292.24/278)*  398  =418  gms  of  EDTA
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abhis9
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Is  it  possible  to  do  this  without  sitting  in  lab!!
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

                                                   
abhis9  wrote  (View  Post):                
Is  it  possible  to  do  this  without  sitting  in  lab!!                

 
 Yes,  purchase  a  branded  250  ml  bottle  for  Rs.  xxx  from  LFS  after  ensuring  that  it  is  genuine  and  not  filled  with  tap  water.  Smile
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AbhishekD
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Thanks  Sandeep.  Adding  418gms  of  chelating  agent  will  reduce  the  percentages  of  all  the  trace  elements  as  the  total  mix  will  be  1140gms.  I  will  have  to  rework  the  calculations  to  see  the  %  reduction.  Is  such  precision  required?  Did  you  chelate  the  metal  salts  with  EDTA  in  powder  form?
 
 Regards,
 Abhishek.
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AbhishekD
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

                                                   
abhis9  wrote  (View  Post):                
Is  it  possible  to  do  this  without  sitting  in  lab!!                

 
 I  know  a  couple  experts  -  Sandeep  and  Madan  who  have  achieved  this  in  the  confine  of  their  homes!
 
 Regards,
 Abhishek.
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 You  can  use  following  
 
 EDTA,  Ethylenediaminetetraacetic  acid------------------------------------------------------382  gms
 MgSO4?7H2O,  Magnesium  sulfate  hepta-hydrate,  Epsom  salt-----------------------152  gms
 FeSO4?7  H2O,  Iron  (II)  sulfate  hepta-hydrate-----------------------------------------------349  gms
 MnSO4?5  H2O,  Manganese  sulfate  penta-hydrate----------------------------------------  89  gms
 ZnSO4?7  H2O,  Zinc  sulfate  hepta-hydrate--------------------------------------------------   18  gms
 H3BO3,  Boric  acid---------------------------------------------------------------------------------         5  gms
 CuSO4?5H2O,  Copper  sulfate  penta-hydrate  (blue)-----------------------------------------4  gms
 H2MoO4,  Molybdic  acid  or  dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum-------------------------------   1  gms
                                  TOTAL                                                                                                                                                                    1000  gms
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 I  did  not  use  EDTA,  but  used  ferrous  gluconate  which  is  a  chelated  salt  of  iron.
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AbhishekD
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Fulvic  acid  is  C14H12O8  with  a  molar  weight  of  308.05322.  Molecular  weight  of  fulvic  acid  is  more  than  EDTA  which  means  the  same  quantity  of  FE  will  require  more  fulvic  acid  when  compared  to  EDTA.  Hmmm  ..
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Athreyan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Abhishek,
 I  really  suck  at  this  topic.  But  let  me  give  you  my  understanding.
 Sandeep  has  mentioned  the  specs  for  EDTA.  Each  chelator  will  be  different  (but  don't  ask  me   Drinking  ).  It  depends  on  how  many  chelation  points  the  specific  chelator  has.
 EDTA  is  supposedly  the  one  with  the  least  number  of  chelation  points.  I  believe  its  one  chelation  point  for  every  molecule.  But  other  chelators  are  more  and  more  effective.  DTPA  is  better  than  EDTA.  Fulvic  acid  better  than  DTPA.  Better  here  means  more  points  of  chelation  per  molecule.
 
 Experts;  am  I  correct  in  my  understanding?
 
 So  you  will  have  to  find  the  specific  properties  of  the  chelator  you  are  using.
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AbhishekD
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Athreyan,
 
 The  total  number  of  points  of  attachment  to  the  central  element  is  termed  the  coordination  number/chelation  point  and  this  can  vary  from  2  to  greater  than  12,  but  is  usually  6.  More  no.  of  chelation  points  will  have  a  bearing  on  the  the  stabilty  of  the  chelated  molecule.  
 
 The  concept  of  molecular  ratio  does  hold  good  while  deciding  the  ration  of  chelating  agent  and  metal  ion  salt  for  synthetic  chelates.  For  organic  chelates  like  fulvic  acid,  I  dont  know.
 
 Regards,
 Abhishek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

                                                   
AbhishekD  wrote  (View  Post):                
Fulvic  acid  is  C14H12O8  with  a  molar  weight  of  308.05322.  Molecular  weight  of  fulvic  acid  is  more  than  EDTA  which  means  the  same  quantity  of  FE  will  require  more  fulvic  acid  when  compared  to  EDTA.  Hmmm  ..                

 
 Molar  weight  of  EDTA  is  292.24,  there  is  not  much  of  a  diff  in  molar  weights  of  EDTA  and  fulvic  acid.
 There  may  be  many  complex  ratios  involved  but  I  think  you  can  safely  use  the  same  quantity  of  Fulvic  acid  as  it  is  for  EDTA
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 I  found  a  few  patents  filed  for  research  done  on  fulvic  acid,  its  extraction  from  leonardite  ore  and  its  impact  on  terrestrial  plant  growth.  
 
 http://www.google.com/patents/ep0284339A2?CL=EN
 
 Another  one  for  explaining  -  Method  of  making  a  dry  compound  containing  chelated  micronutrients.
 
 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/4425149
 
 and  it  states  -  "The  chelating  agent  was  then  ground  to  a  fine  powder  which  was  mixed  with  a  finely  ground  ferrous  sulfate  at  the  ratio  of  25%  of  the  chelating  agent  and  75%  by  weight  ferrous  sulfate.  This  powdered  mixture  began  to  expand  and  to  change  color.  After  about  a  24  hour  period  the  mixture  stabilized.  It  had  quit  growing  and  had  stopped  changing  color.  The  color  change  was  from  gray  green  to  a  light  brown.  The  result  is  a  15%  chelated  iron  compound  that  can  be  stored  in  the  dry  state,  shipped  dry,  then  added  to  water  to  form  a  liquid  which  can  be  added  directly  to  liquid  fertilizers  in  the  same  manner  as  EDTA  chelates  are  added  to  fertilizer.  "
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 Folks,
 
 Finally  got  all  the  chemicals  costed  a  bomb!  The  most  difficult  to  procure  was  fulvic  acid  1  kg,  nobody  sells  it  in  quantities  less  than  20/25kgs.  Mixed  a  pinch  of  fulvic  acid  with  with  a  pinch  of  ferrous  II  sulphate  heptahydrate.  The  colour  of  the  Ferrous  sulphate  crystals  changed  from  green  -  blue  to  opaque  dull  white.  Not  sure  whether  the  crystals  got  chelated  or  oxidised.  Left  another  pinch  of  ferrous  sultphate  without  fulvic  acid  to  see  what  happens.  
 
 Regards,
 Abhishek
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation Reply with quote

 I  enquired  with  lot  (Aprox  20)  of  Chemical/fertilizer  shops  in  chennai...  Felt  so  bad  and  pissed  off...  
 None  of  them  having  idea  about  DTPA/Penetic  Acid...  or  Fulvic  Acid/Humic  Acid.......  THey  are  asking  what  it  is..  :-(
 And  none  of  them  having  stock  of  Ferrous  gluconate..  :-(
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