| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
 |
|
Hi …
While Madan is riding the waves, experts who use fulvic acid chelated micro nutrient mix, can you please share how much fulvic acid is required for chelating the micro nutrients. I did some homework(based on discussions in IAH and tombarreport) - to prepare 1 kg micronutrient mix on the lines of CSM+B, the calculations are: -
Element and its Salt--CSM+B ratios--TRACE ELEMENT IN GM--TRACE ELEMENT % IN COMPOUND--TOTAL COMPOUND IN GM--COMPOUND NAME
FE(FESO4.7H2O)-------------8%------------80.0000-------------------20.0871%-------------------------------398.2656--------------Ferrous sulphate heptahydrate
MN(MnSO4*H2O)------------2%------------20.0000-------------------32.5045%-------------------------------61.5299---------------Manganese Sulphate
CU(CuSO4.5H2O)-----------0.10%---------1.0000--------------------25.4505%-------------------------------3.9292----------------Copper Sulphate
ZN(ZnSO4.7H2O)------------0.40%---------4.0000--------------------22.7374%-------------------------------17.5922---------------Zinc Sulphate
B(Na2B8O13.4H2O)---------1.40%---------14.0000-------------------20.9668%-------------------------------66.7722---------------sodium octaborate tetrahydrate
MO(Na2MoO4.2H2O)--------0.06%---------0.6000--------------------39.6587%-------------------------------1.5129----------------Sodium Molybdate
MG(MgSO4.7H2O)-----------1.70%---------17.0000-------------------9.8610%--------------------------------172.3963--------------Magnesium Sulphate
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total-------721.9983
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Remainder in KG----278.0017
Remainder in KG is the weight of Fulvic acid to be used. Let me know if this 278 gm of fulvic acid will chelate metal salts weighing 722gms?
GM = gram
KG = Kilogram
Regards,
Abhishek |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sandeepraghuvanshi
Moderator
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 4895
Location: Mathura, UP
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
To perform chelation, you need the mix the salts in ratio of their molar masses.
Molar mass of EDTA is 292.24 and molar mass of Iron sulphate (hepta hydrate) is 278.
So for 398 gm of FEso4.7h20 you will need
(292.24/278)* 398 =418 gms of EDTA |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abhis9
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 3235
Location: Kolkata, West Bengal, India
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| Is it possible to do this without sitting in lab!! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sandeepraghuvanshi
Moderator
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 4895
Location: Mathura, UP
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| abhis9 wrote (View Post):
|
|
Is it possible to do this without sitting in lab!!
|
Yes, purchase a branded 250 ml bottle for Rs. xxx from LFS after ensuring that it is genuine and not filled with tap water.  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
Thanks Sandeep. Adding 418gms of chelating agent will reduce the percentages of all the trace elements as the total mix will be 1140gms. I will have to rework the calculations to see the % reduction. Is such precision required? Did you chelate the metal salts with EDTA in powder form?
Regards,
Abhishek. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| abhis9 wrote (View Post):
|
|
Is it possible to do this without sitting in lab!!
|
I know a couple experts - Sandeep and Madan who have achieved this in the confine of their homes!
Regards,
Abhishek. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sandeepraghuvanshi
Moderator
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 4895
Location: Mathura, UP
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
You can use following
EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid------------------------------------------------------382 gms
MgSO4?7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt-----------------------152 gms
FeSO4?7 H2O, Iron (II) sulfate hepta-hydrate-----------------------------------------------349 gms
MnSO4?5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate---------------------------------------- 89 gms
ZnSO4?7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate-------------------------------------------------- 18 gms
H3BO3, Boric acid--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 gms
CuSO4?5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)-----------------------------------------4 gms
H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------------------- 1 gms
TOTAL 1000 gms |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sandeepraghuvanshi
Moderator
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 4895
Location: Mathura, UP
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| I did not use EDTA, but used ferrous gluconate which is a chelated salt of iron. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| Fulvic acid is C14H12O8 with a molar weight of 308.05322. Molecular weight of fulvic acid is more than EDTA which means the same quantity of FE will require more fulvic acid when compared to EDTA. Hmmm .. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Athreyan
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Dec 30, 2012
Posts: 444
Location: Chennai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
Abhishek,
I really suck at this topic. But let me give you my understanding.
Sandeep has mentioned the specs for EDTA. Each chelator will be different (but don't ask me  ). It depends on how many chelation points the specific chelator has.
EDTA is supposedly the one with the least number of chelation points. I believe its one chelation point for every molecule. But other chelators are more and more effective. DTPA is better than EDTA. Fulvic acid better than DTPA. Better here means more points of chelation per molecule.
Experts; am I correct in my understanding?
So you will have to find the specific properties of the chelator you are using. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
Athreyan,
The total number of points of attachment to the central element is termed the coordination number/chelation point and this can vary from 2 to greater than 12, but is usually 6. More no. of chelation points will have a bearing on the the stabilty of the chelated molecule.
The concept of molecular ratio does hold good while deciding the ration of chelating agent and metal ion salt for synthetic chelates. For organic chelates like fulvic acid, I dont know.
Regards,
Abhishek |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sandeepraghuvanshi
Moderator
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 4895
Location: Mathura, UP
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
| AbhishekD wrote (View Post):
|
|
Fulvic acid is C14H12O8 with a molar weight of 308.05322. Molecular weight of fulvic acid is more than EDTA which means the same quantity of FE will require more fulvic acid when compared to EDTA. Hmmm ..
|
Molar weight of EDTA is 292.24, there is not much of a diff in molar weights of EDTA and fulvic acid.
There may be many complex ratios involved but I think you can safely use the same quantity of Fulvic acid as it is for EDTA |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
I found a few patents filed for research done on fulvic acid, its extraction from leonardite ore and its impact on terrestrial plant growth.
http://www.google.com/patents/ep0284339A2?CL=EN
Another one for explaining - Method of making a dry compound containing chelated micronutrients.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/4425149
and it states - "The chelating agent was then ground to a fine powder which was mixed with a finely ground ferrous sulfate at the ratio of 25% of the chelating agent and 75% by weight ferrous sulfate. This powdered mixture began to expand and to change color. After about a 24 hour period the mixture stabilized. It had quit growing and had stopped changing color. The color change was from gray green to a light brown. The result is a 15% chelated iron compound that can be stored in the dry state, shipped dry, then added to water to form a liquid which can be added directly to liquid fertilizers in the same manner as EDTA chelates are added to fertilizer. " |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AbhishekD
Frequent Visitor to IAH
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Hennur, Bangalore
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
Folks,
Finally got all the chemicals costed a bomb! The most difficult to procure was fulvic acid 1 kg, nobody sells it in quantities less than 20/25kgs. Mixed a pinch of fulvic acid with with a pinch of ferrous II sulphate heptahydrate. The colour of the Ferrous sulphate crystals changed from green - blue to opaque dull white. Not sure whether the crystals got chelated or oxidised. Left another pinch of ferrous sultphate without fulvic acid to see what happens.
Regards,
Abhishek |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hanishsraj
IAH New Member
Joined: Jul 19, 2013
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Fulvic Acid Chelation |
|
|
I enquired with lot (Aprox 20) of Chemical/fertilizer shops in chennai... Felt so bad and pissed off...
None of them having idea about DTPA/Penetic Acid... or Fulvic Acid/Humic Acid....... THey are asking what it is.. :-(
And none of them having stock of Ferrous gluconate.. :-( |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Guest(s): 464
![[News Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_news.png "News Feed"){kind=small}
![[Forums Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_forums.png "Forums Feed"){kind=small}
![[Downloads Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_down.png "Downloads Feed"){kind=small}
![[Web Links Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_links.png "Web Links Feed"){kind=small}
![[Validate robots.txt]](images/powered/valid-robots.png "Validate robots.txt"){kind=small}