Joined: Dec 09, 2008 Posts: 664 Location: Mumbai Dahisar (w)
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Sorry for being offline all these days. But examtime calls for such harsh measures.
Saw the updates. The signs are grave, as Krash suggested, but recent developments are positive. I'll catch-up from where I left.
From what I see in the latest pic, there certainly seems to be an intestinal obstruction. But the site of obstruction has been dynamic due to forced voluntary peristaltic efforts from the fish. Due to these, the obstructing substance (In this case, more likely to be a small piece of gravel, based on the history) has been propelled gradually forwards through the alimentary tract. It wasn't visible earlier when it occupied the roomy abdominal cavity, but now as it is being pushed closer towards the anal canal, situated towards the periphery, the bulge caused by it is becoming obvious.
By the continued bearing down efforts of the fish, the foreign body will soon be excreted. But due to the reflex spasticity of the anal sphincter, there might be a prolapse. But it should reduce spontaneously over a week or so. There also might be some bleeding from fissures or ulcers caused by friction with the stone. Therefore, continued treatment with flagyl is essential to treat existing infection of these, if any and prevent superinfection. So what's required on your part is continued daily water changes, medication topups and a lot of patience. I would have suggested an intervention, but it needs more experience at handling fish, lest the fish dies of the intervention, rather thn the disease itself. So currently, lets stick to letting the fish push out the stone by itself.
From what I see in the pictures, you should be able to see the obstructing stone or the prolapsed rectum coming out of the anus in a couple of days.
Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 108 Location: Bangalore
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Kastor mate, sorry for having to disturb you during your study time, but i simply didn't know anyone else to go too. I'm grateful to you for taking time off your studies and looking at my fish. Once again, thanks a lot!!
Regarding Sick fish
As for the fish, is there any need to add epsom salt to the tank to aid in easier muscle movement ? In case of a prolapse is any additional treatment like glycerine on the affected area required ? What are the chances of him surviving this ordeal ?
My other fish in same tank
The male has stopped eating from saturday,ever since i added flagyl to the tank he was such a voracious eater before and now it's like he's stopped completely. How many days can he survive without food ? Is force feeding advisable ? when do i start if its required ?
Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 108 Location: Bangalore
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Contrary to what i'd thought, she's now at the bottom of the tank, unable to swim up and come to the surface. The only saving grace is she's not falling on to ther side instead is at the bottom and upright.
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
I will address your two queries below, but prior to that want explain few observations i made & my inference
I went through the entire thread to access what has happened so far & i feel the issue with your fish is parasitic. But we have not effectively & systematically solved the problem. I will explain my reasoning , my diagnosis & reason for that & inference point wise.
1} First about the blackened face it’s a sign of stress or excitement. Flower horns typically will show vertical stripes, but as you know these fishes are so interbred & bred for variety & gene variations are huge, & in rare occasions they can show unorthodox behavior. I have seen FH that showed stress by darkening its body till the tail. Though this is uncommon it does happen. So in a nutshell, IMO darkening is just a signal of stress. Also you can look closely she darkens her right side face more than left. This very common when FH has internal worm infestation, also happens in flagellate infestation.
Another reason this can happen is if the fish has tumor growing on that side internally, but I don’t see any other symptoms to conform that. This is a possibility in FH.
2} The issue about gravel ingestion, which Kastor rightly explained, but as you yourself said that is negated. Kastor is right it not an advisable substrate to use for FH.
3} Infertility as Kastor concluded & explained doesn’t seem to be the issue.
4} ”Used a de-wormer tablet given by the LFS & homeopathic syrup”, Here I think you did a mistake of trying to save your FH & using meds without completely understanding the contents, though your intentions were pure, it could aggravated the problem or created new symptoms that would cause mis-diagnosis. From what you have mentioned, I believe what the lFS gave you was Drontil plus(+),the tablet would have been circular, flat & white. Many LFS guys in their dialect of speaking makes it sound as “dontil X” or “edontyl ex”, I have witnessed this 1st hand. Also this is a common dog de-wormer & its widely known & therefore recommended by many LFS. Efficacy is not so good, given the cost of the tab , if I remember correctly it should be 7X per tab.
Another thing is from what I can gather from your post you used one tablet for your tank, two things wrong here, one dosage has to calculated on the volume of your tank, two de-worming has a treatment regime, as most de-wormers only target certain life stages of the worm, so have to be used in sequence to be effective.
The homeopathy syrup you administered will not be effective & will most likely aggravate the problem. Homeopathy works on the concept of curing a problem by creating minor symptoms of the same problem, so it uses chemicals to induce symptoms of disease & expects better resistance from the body, not the right thing to do at the stage your FH is. Also note in homeopathy strong toxins are used in much diluted form to achieve this, & can’t tell how fishes tolerate these. Fights poison with diluted poison, putting it in lay mans terms. Also homeopathy is widely seen to be effective in mammals; its effectiveness in cold blooded animals is unknown & not used to the best of my knowledge.
5} Now coming to the observation of his poop after palpitation, I saw the pic & I feel its feces infected with a nematode called Capillaria worms. Have seen similar consistency in poop with these worms before & they look similar, also looking at the above symptoms, it fits well. But the pic is not clear & stained with MB, so can’t be definitive.
6} For the bloated stomach you were advised to use Metronidazole(flagyl) at the rate of I ml per liter. So since you brought flagyl that has strength of 40mg/ml as per Kastor’s recommendation, you said you halved the height of the water & dosed with 60ml. Half height of your water volume will be 79 ltrs (approx), for which we need to add 395mg to the tank, in other words 10 ml. It seems you have accidentally miscalculated & added 60ml that is 2400mg (40mg/ml). This is too high, & shows in your tank water appearance being hazy. Also Metronidazole is very harsh on the kidneys of the fish. At such high doses the small amounts absorbed by the fish itself will exceed the max limit we normally administer internally for a fish. The drug damages the cells in the kidneys & liver, also reduces the oxygen solubility in water. Which is why you see a much gaped mouth & labored breathing in the fish vs the first video you posted? Also this much stress from the drug would have weakened her immunity further.
Metronidazole though having mild antibiotic properties still is more of a anti-protozoan drug. So using it now when we don’t see any protozoan infestation is futile. You mentioned no white feces, so the chance of a flagellate infestation is low, but can’t be ruled out. I believe a better prophylactic antibiotic would be better; will mention about it below.
6} On the issue of blood coming when you tried to feed her flagyl, I believe the drug would have shot out too fast(happens with suspensions) & hit her gill filaments, if the nozzle of the syringe was not angled properly. So nothing to worry, besides her getting a bit stressed & bruised.
7} Redness near his gill plate could be a secondary bacterial infection from the gill damage & weakened immunity, due to stress from too much drug & parasitic infestation. So it does need concern if it shows sign of increasing.
8} After adding flagyl the male FH shows loss of appetite, etc. - well it’s clear that too much drug has caused his immunity to drop & be stressed. Also since both these guys where sharing on tank, direct infecting nematodes like Capillaria will have infected both fishes easily, & the same holds true for flagellate infestation. He too showed bulged out stomach in the 1st pic. Also what you have to understand is that many large fishes tolerate certain amount of parasite infestation with good immunity, but if they over run their system that’s when you see drastic symptoms.
9} you mentioned that there is labored breathing(new symptom) with redness around the gill area & under mouth, this points to blood hemorrhagic infection, basically tells us that the fish has got a initial stage of a bacterial infection. Most probably a hemorrhagic septicemia infestation. Which can lead to dropsy, & other complications.
10} Now about the swollen anal pore, yes like channa guy & Kastor mentioned could be worms stuck in tract, & this is common in Capillaria worm infestation; but since you ran flagyl, I feel it could be dead flagellate stuck in the tract. Remember many times it is not uncommon to have multiple parasitic infestations. In case it is a gravel stuck in the GI tract, then like they mentioned its best to wait & watch & let the fish expel it. But IMO its anal pore is getting inflamed either by blockage or & a underlying bacterial infection.
Now that I hope I could make you understand my assessment of the points you raised, so that when I give my diagnosis you will be to relate better.
>> The FH had underlying parasitic problem. The uneven coloration (darkening), the bloated stomach & now a inflamed anus points to a live bearing nematode infection, like Capillaria. Seeing the pic of the feces you posted it looks very much like Capillaria infection. You mentioned thread like things visible, also saw some mucous coated feces that is a sign of Capillaria infestation. Also most worm infestation don’t cause bulging stomach, Capillaria worms do at times, especially when they reproduce in tank with only one fish. I feel the FH has high chance of a protozoan flagellate infestation as well, based on the fact the other FH also stopped taking feed, & bulging stomach though white stringy feces is absent.
>> Why she has deteriorated so much is because when you ran such high dosage of metronidiazole , it stressed her a lot & got her immunity down, where in secondary bacterial infection as set in. Also the kidney must have strained a lot, notice he eyes bulge more in the newer pics, also she looks more swollen (not the stomach) but her overall body. Added to that the homeopathic drug could have intensified her symptoms. Also saw your last post of her sunk to the bottom, shows she isn’t able to control buoyancy clear indication her peritoneal cavity is infected & has affected her swim bladder slightly.
>>final analysis mainly a nematode infestation, with possible flagellates , aggravated to a secondary bacterial infection.
With the bacterial infection setting in this is the first thing you should address. Once she has reached this stage, don’t want to dis-hearten you but it’s a 50 – 50 chance, so makes it crucial you do your best to help her recover. Also like to point out that if the inflamed anus is gravel pushing out then also we still have to cure the bacterial infection that is what will kill her first, once she is cured we can look at eliminating the parasitic problem. Also like to mention the process might take few weeks, reason being each drug has an effect & side effects so we can’t run them all together, we might cure the infection but kill the fish due to organ damage, believe you me, I have seen it 1st hand.
From the water conditions & location of the infection & symptoms I feel you have gram negative aeromonas or pseudomonas bacterial infection. Can’t pin point at the moment, because she is showing no external symptoms. So we have to assume both are present & select the antibiotic accordingly.
Medication choices .
The stage she is in I would say an injection is the best method, as the drug will delivered quickly to where it’s required & be effective. This is what I prefer, if you are up to it. Drug choices are Oxytetracycline with or without Enrofloxacin
2nd option is a bath treatment of a absorbable drug, Kanamycin. But its difficult to source.
3rd is bath treatment of an absorbable drug called minocycline, but it has draw backs, it harsh on the kidneys, so will have to see the fish before giving the go ahead.
4th is we can force feed the drug via the mouth with food.
But before that kindly take the following steps,
1) Do large WC about 70 % for 2 days, starting today.
2) Discontinue flagyl immediately
3) Increase the aeration in the tank
4) Have a heater set to 27 to 29 C temperatures.
5) Add Epsom salt to the tank, at one sachet or packet per 30 ltrs of water. That is if you have kept the water at half level for ease of cleaning & drug administration then add 3 sachets/ packets to you tank. Each sachet is 20grams. It is mild muscle relaxant, a laxative & helps reduce the inflammation building internally in the fish.
6) Do daily WC of 40% to 50 %.
7) Buy Methylene blue (blue medicine) & dose that tank.
8] Take a close look at your fish; look for visible changes in the skin, fins, etc. Will help in diagnosing better. do post pics or explain what you see; Look at her underside near belly you should see blood spots, or bloody patch. Eyes have they bulged more than usual, base of her fins & fin edge, these are few you should look for.
Also do mention if you are comfortable with giving injections, accordingly will explain how to go about it in detail. If your confident its easy.
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Wow. Brother Krash, you are a gem. Repped you. Seems like reading a detective novel and either the mystery is slowly unfolding or the plot is getting thicker. Either way, my interest in this case has risen sky high. brother shashank, you are lucky to get such detailed info. Just hope that your fishes survive and get well soon.
Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 108 Location: Bangalore
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
It is with tremendous grief i write this. My female FH died today morning. When i woke up at 7, i found her lying near the front glass still as a rock, motionless except for swaying due to water current.
I don't know if it was the medicine overdose or the lack of expertise in handling the fish which killed her, but it hurt a lot to lose her after having her for nearly 2 years with me i pray her soul rests in peace.
I wish someone had told me of the grave error i'd committed before it was too late.
I don't think i can digest the fact that my carelessness lead to her death. Its best i stay out of this hobby.
I'm planning on giving up my male FH, along with the tank and filter. Once he recovers i'll put him up for adoption, and it is my humble request to anyone with adequate knowledge to take him and provide a proper home with adequate care.
Meanwhile, my male FH needs your help badly Krash and Kastor. He's too weak to swim around, lies in the at the bottom of the tank mostly, hasn't eaten since flagyl was added to the tank. I notice a slight bulge in his left eye and stomach, though no change in body coloration. I'm attaching a pic and video for your reference.
I've performed the following changes to the tank:
1. 80% water change, cleaned the entire tank and filter of any flagyl deposits left. Tank is at its full capacity in terms of water now.
2. Added non-iodised salt.
3. My canister and an air pump is running.
4. Water temp at 28 C
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
the last thing you should do is give up, due to death of your pet fish. She had fruitful life with you.
She didn't die because you made mistake, but due to the fact that it is difficult to diagnose fish diseases accurately. And at times we never get it right.
I was following your thread, & seeing that you where getting help. I happened to read your thread again 2 days back & realised what she got, & thats why i mentioned she had a 50 -50 chance. (didn't want to dis-hearten you). But my fears have come true.
But dont worry the best of the best get it wrong, My vet for my dog sometimes gets it wrong, & they have studied for years for the profession. And fish its difficult because for many diseases they exhibit similar symptoms. So it is confusing.
Honestly the fact you dosed wrong did quicken the process, but she was already on danger line. Which is also why i recommended a injection.
Now will check your pics & video as best as i can & recheck my diagnosis or reconfirm it.
will get back in an hour or so do check back in an hour.
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Sorry mods, buy just one last word for my grieving friend here. Brother shshank, I have no words left to express my grief. I know that its hard for you, but to find the actual cause of death and save the life of the male while we still have time, it will be worthwhile if you find the heart to conduct a post-mortem on your dead fish. Just a slit near the anal pore to find the cause of the bulge. though my request seems inhuman at this stage, know that it will save the life of another long time and dear friend. Brother Krash will get a definite direction to guide you into saving your male fish. Please do it.
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