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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Heirarchal re-ordering stress
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Heirarchal re-ordering stress
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nag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:49 pm Post subject: Heirarchal re-ordering stress Reply with quote

 Hi  All:
 
 This  a  strange  phenomenon  I  came  across...
 From  my  existing  Discus  setup,  I  moved  3  discus  out  to  a  separate  tank...
 In  about  2  days,  I  saw  most  of  the  discus  have  become  stressed...have  become  black...though  they  are  eating  fine.
 
 I  read  that  Discus  have  Heirarchal  re-ordering  stress
 Has  anyone  experienced  this?
 
 I'd  like  to  know  more.
 Thanks  in  Advance,
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venket
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hello  Nag,
 
 The  symptom  that  you  have  posted  does  not  look  like  Heirarchal  re-ordering  stress,  but  looks  more  to  me  like  the  start  for  2  possible  attacks  that  are  very  common  to  discus  especially  in  this  part  of  the  year  due  to  changes  in  weather.  1.Nematode  attack  2.  Discus  plague.  Please  start  off  with  basic  preventive  treatment.  If  left  unchecked  this  could  lead  to  problems  later  on.  These  symptoms  lie  dormant  and  show  when  discus  are  moved.
 
 Regards
 
 Venket
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nag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Venket:
 
 The  discus  which  I've  moved  are  just  fine  and  happy...I'm  mentioning  the  ones  which  are  in  the  original  tank...  Confused  
 
 BTW,  can  you  pls  elaborate  Nematode  Attack  and  Discus  Plague?  What  measures  are  to  be  taken  to  counter/prevent  them?
 
 Regards,
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venket
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hello  Nag,
 
 Nematodes  are  very  small  worms  that  are  spread  to  discus  mainly  through  live  feed  given  to  them.  This  infests  the  intestines  of  the  fish  and  produces  symptoms  like  darkening  of  body,  timid  behaviors,  lack  of  appetite  etc.  Generally  nematodes  are  got  rid  of  by  oral  medications.  Mebendazol  or  albendazol  (I  used  metrogyl  250mg)  mixed  in  BHM.
 
 Discus  plague  is  a  vastly  discussed  subject  in  most  of  the  discus  portals.  No  specific  reasons  have  been  arrived  at  for  the  cause  of  this  disease.  The  only  preventive  treatment  given  to  the  fish  that  carries  the  symptoms  is  salt  water  with  potassium  permanganate  dips.  
 
 Please  bear  with  me  as  all  the  above  statements  are  purely  out  of  my  own  experiences  with  discus  disease  and  hence  might  be  having  drawbacks.  I  am  out  of  touch  with  disease  and  treatment  for  the  last  couple  of  years  and  hence  lost  touch  with  the  treatment  methodology.  
 
 
 Regards
 
 Venket
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beta
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:26 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 They  might  just  be  stressed  due  to  the  disturbance
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kiran
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Nag,
 
 Its  just  New  Tank  Syndrome  -  most  of  the  time
 You  will  have  to  wait  and  see  for  a  few  days  unless  they  have  problems  like  what  Venket  has  mentioned.
 
 They  get  frightened  easily  thereby  getting  stressed.
 
 Methylene  blue  at  times  helps-  No  not  as  medication  but  by  
 making  visibility  poor  when  the  water  is  tinted  blue.Its  like  covering  the  sides  with  newspaper.
 
 They  should  get  over  it  within  a  week  
 
 Keep  us  informed.
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nag
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hello  Guys,
 
 I  did  discover  that  it  indeed  was  "Heirarchal  re-ordering  stress"
 I  also  did  some  study  and  would  like  to  share  my  experience  on  this.
 
 In  a  Discus  tank,  when  you've  Discus  of  varying  age...and  they  are  put  up  to  live  together...over  a  period  living  together...they  form  a  Heirarchy.
 
 In  this,  the  leader  and  its  preferred  partners  are  the  ones  who  are  going  to  grow  faster  and  bigger.  And  there  will  be  runts  in  the  tank.
 
 With  time,  when  the  paired  Discus  are  moved  out  of  the  tank...it  is  then  the  runt(s)  will  show  growth  to  attain  full  size.
 
 As  such  during  this  phase  (pairing)  if  the  Discus  are  moved  out  of  the  tank;  the  result  is  Heirarchal  re-ordering  stress
 
 Yesterday  I  left  back  the  Discus  which  I'd  moved...by  today  morning...just  like  magic...everybody  is  doing  fine.
 
 Thanks,
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nag
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 I  think  this  phenomenon  is  applicable  to  all  Cichlids
 
 Bye,
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hello,Nag!
 I  am  inclined  to  agree  with  you.I  have  noticed  a  very  similar  thing  with  almost  all  african  cichlids.It  is  most  obvious  in  the  more  territorial  fish  like  malawi  cichlids,where  in  a  given  set  up  there  is  an  established  ,but  delicate  "political"  scenario.One  or  two  males(depending  on  the  size  of  the  tank,and  number  of  hiding  places)will  be  dominant,next  in  dominance  will  be  the  prefered  and  breeding  females.Third  level  is  filled  by  non  dominant  males,and  finally  are  the  juveniles  and  non  breeding  females(in  that  order).Now,if  one  dominant  male/breeding  female  is  removed,there  will  be  a  mad  rush  from  the  lower  ranks  to  grab  that  vacancy.This  frequently  can  lead  to  killing  also.And  when  this  male/breeding  female  is  returned,it  may/maynot  regain  its  top  rank.So  in  such  a  situation  it  is  better  for  the  aquarist  to  drastically  change  the  layout  of  the  tank,so  that  everyone  has  to  re-establish.  Very Happy  This  kind  of  behaviour  can  beat  any  of  our  serials  in  their  dramatic  effect(kahi  kisi  ros?kasauti  zindagi....)....and  is  why  the  hobby  is  so  fascinating.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:39 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 This  is  otherwise  called  a  PECK  ORDER.    In  some  places  i've  seen  an  even  wierd,  funny  thing  taking  place.    It  creates  a  chain  reaction.    For  eg  D1  is  the  fish  that  is  more  dominant  (most  probably  alpha  males),  D2  is  the  next  dominant  and  D3  is  the  least  dominant  then  D1  chases  D2  and  D2  chases  D3.  D1  gets  the  max  food  and  territory  space  and  grows  fast.    D2  eats  the  left  overs  of  D1  and  it  grows  slower.    D3  almost  gets  stunted.
 
 In  case  of  continuous  bully  young  discus  may  acquire  a  disease  called  Hexamita.    But  for  any  disease-symptom  my  first  step  would  be  a  saline  treatment  and  followed  by  a  water  bath  (in  persistant  cases).
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nag
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:10 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote:                
In  case  of  continuous  bully  young  discus  may  acquire  a  disease  called  Hexamita.                

 
 Madhu  can  you  provide  proof  for  this...I  mean  have  you  had  a  case  to  refer  OR  any  other  reference??
 
 According  to  my  knowledge,  it's  caused  only  by  infectious  protozoans  and  salt  dip  is  not  going  to  cure  Hexamita...what  say  Beta?...  Very Happy  
 
 For  detailed  theory  on  Hexmita  refer:
 http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/hexamita.html
 
 For  detailed  use  of  'Metro'  see:
 http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/ipmetro.html
 
 Bye,
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murthy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:24 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote:                

 In  case  of  continuous  bully  young  discus  may  acquire  a  disease  called  Hexamita.    But  for  any  disease-symptom  my  first  step  would  be  a  saline  treatment  and  followed  by  a  water  bath  (in  persistant  cases).                

 
 ......it  may  not  be  a  direct  cause  of  hexamita...but  constant  stress  does  make  a  fish  SUSCEPTIBLE  to  it.good  aquarium  husbandry  should  see  to  it  that  not  even  the  most  subordinate  discus  get  infected.
 
 ......er..madhu  can  you  clarify  what  is  a  saline  treatment?and  what  is  a  'water'  bath?is  that  not  what  you  normally  keep  your  discus  in,water?
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beta
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:32 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote:                
In  case  of  continuous  bully  young  discus  may  acquire  a  disease  called  Hexamita.    But  for  any  disease-symptom  my  first  step  would  be  a  saline  treatment  and  followed  by  a  water  bath  (in  persistant  cases).                

 
 Hexamita  doesn't  have  anything  to  do  with  bullying,  it  has  more  to  do  with  bad  tank  hygiene  which  might  lead  to  a  discus  being  affected  by  this  protozoan.  This  is  my  opinion  Smile
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 I  do  agree  wth  u  beta,  murthy  &  nag.    Adult  or  sub-adults  aren't  suceptible  to  hexamita  when  they're  under  constant  stress.    But  discus  around  2-3"  are  susceptible.    Once  i  read  this  in  dphnet.com's  disease  cause/symptom/treatment  section.    I've  also  seen  it  in  a  friend's  place.    He  had  3  marlboros  absolutely  fine.    But  when  he  introduced  two  5"  angels  discuss'  lost  their  color,  apetite  and  weight.    Some  of  my  friends  in  Europe  are  pretty  sure  of  the  fact  that  young  stressed  discus  are  suceptible  hexamita.
 A  sline  treatment  is  -  putting  around  5  tblspns  of  uniodised  crystalline  salt  in  tank  water.    A  saline  bath  is  treating  discus  in  a  strong  salt  soln  for  a  couple  of  mins.    This  is  wht  i  refered  to  saline  treatment  &  bath.    Saline  bath  may  be  stressful  to  discus  as  when  placed  in  strong  salt  solns  the  fish  will  be  dehydrated.
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murthy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:56 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Confused:  did  the  5  inch  angels  bring  in  the  parasites?Domestic  angels  are  known  to  be  resistant  to  parasites,and  may  show  no  outward  signs  of  harboring  them.But  put  them  with  a  discus....and  you  have  an  outbreak.maybe  thats  what  happened  with  the  marlboro?lots  of  possibilities!
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