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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Hybrids, Mutations, Selective Breeding, etc.
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Hybrids, Mutations, Selective Breeding, etc.
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:32 am Post subject: Hybrids, Mutations, Selective Breeding, etc. Reply with quote

 Guys,
 
 I  was  just  browsing  through  the  net  and  going  through  various  sites....  With  rgds  to  hybrids,  mutations,  and  selective  breeding,  i  found  the  following:
 
 1)  Hybrids  are  considered  bad  with  regards  to  keep  the  fish  strain  pure  but  are  something  worth  looking  into  (for  behavioral  and  personal  reasons)...
 
 2)  Mutations  are  rarely  found,  and  the  prefered  treatment  for  them  is  euthansia  or  culling...
 
 3)  Selective  Breeding  is  fine  as  long  as  it  does  not  produce  hybrids  or  mutations...
 
 This  is  what  I  found  (on  a  general  basis).    I  want  to  know...  if  selective  breeding  can  bring  about  hybrids  and  mutated  species...  is  it  worth  the  risk  /  initiative?
 
 thanx  in  advance,
 
 lance
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kuksinhyd
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:46 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Lancelot,
 Selective  breeding  can  bring  about  mutations  and  hybrid's,  the  idea  of  selective  breeding  is  to  purify  a  strain  in  a  particular  species,  or  enhance  the  same,  not  to  MANUFACTURE  something  new  (sorry  for  the  capitals).  that  is  why  all  good  and  etical  breeders  believe  in  Culling.  Let  us  not  try  and  bring  about  something  which  nature  did  not  intend.  
 
 I  may  be  wrong  in  my  thinking,  my  apologies  to  our  other  members  if  i  offended  one  of  them,  but  thats  how  i  feel.
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:01 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 kuksinhyd,
 
 maybe...  but  sometimes  selective  breeding  can  bring  out  a  new  strain...    or  something  so  different  that  it  can  be  considered  a  new  strain...  then  what?  do  we  give  it  a  new  name  and  make  it  a  new  type  of  strain  that  is  available???  
 
 honestly,  i'm  not  sure..  that's  why  i'm  asking....
 
 lance
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:18 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hybridization:  Cross  breeding  of  two  different  species.    Hybridization  brings  about  good  traits  but  the  offsprings  in  most  cases  are  sterile.    Eg:  Mule,  Flowerhorns,  Blood  parrots.
 
 Mutation:  A  change  or  a  new  trait  brought  in  an  off-spring  which  is  not  present  in  either  of  the  parents  is  called  mutation.    Mutation  can  be  good  or  bad.
 
 Selective  Breeding:  If  there  is  a  brood  of  100  fries,  the  breeder  selects  a  few  of  the  most  nice  looking  fry  for  further  breeding  to  get  better  brood  later.    This  is  not  hazardious.
 
 Strict  &  Desciplined  selective  breeding  is  not  hybridization,  which  commonly  does  not  bring  about  any  mutation.
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puneit
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:21 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
Selective  Breeding:  If  there  is  a  brood  of  100  fries,  the  breeder  selects  a  few  of  the  most  nice  looking  fry  for  further  breeding  to  get  better  brood  later.  This  is  not  hazardious.  
 
 Strict  &  Desciplined  selective  breeding  is  not  hybridization,  which  commonly  does  not  bring  about  any  mutation.                

 
 I  agree  to  it,  but  I  would  like  to  bring  in  yet  another  term-  In-breeding.  
 Breeders  should  understand  the  probable  disadvantages  of  inbreeding.  It's  quite  possible  that  in-bred  offsprings  are  genetically  weak,  because  of  some  resessive  trait  which  becomes  active.
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 madhu,
 
 i  believe  that  in  the  distant  past  there  were  only  a  handful,  maybe  2  -  3  varieties  of  goldfish...  now  through  selective  breeding  we  have  a  couple  of  hundred....
 
 by  creating  new  varities  would  we  be  mutating  them  or  would  this  still  fall  under  selective  breeding....
 
 lance
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
puneit  wrote:                
I  agree  to  it,  but  I  would  like  to  bring  in  yet  another  term-  In-breeding.  
 Breeders  should  understand  the  probable  disadvantages  of  inbreeding.  It's  quite  possible  that  in-bred  offsprings  are  genetically  weak,  because  of  some  resessive  trait  which  becomes  active.                

 
 This  is  true,  but  not  always.    If  you  are  starting  from  F0s  ie.,  wild  caughts  in-breeding  won't  bring  about  a  weak  gene  pool  for  approximately  the  next  16  generations  in  case  you  breed  brothers-sisters  and  approx.  10  generations  in  case  you  breed  cousins  or  breed  them  back  to  their  parents  depending  upon  the  gene  pool  strength  of  the  F0  parents.
 
 
                                                 
lancelot  wrote:                

 now  through  selective  breeding  we  have  a  couple  of  hundred....  
 
 by  creating  new  varities  would  we  be  mutating  them  or  would  this  still  fall  under  selective  breeding....  
                 

 
 Not  all  fall  into  the  category  of  selective  breeding.    Gold  fish  has  been  extensively  line  bred,  in  bred,  outbred  all  these  years.    Many  of  the  gold  fish  variants  we  have  now  are  mutants  and  many  of  them  will  not  be  true  breeders.


Last edited by madhu_ulysses on Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 madhu,
 
 when  we  say  that  fish  such  as  FH's  or  other  variants  are  wrong  as  they  are  an  intermixing  of  different  species,  would  we  be  right  in  saying  the  same  applies  to  the  varities  of  goldfish.    i'm  sure  some  have  to  be  hybrids....
 
 lance
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 If  all  varients  of  goldfish  today  are  from  Carassius  auratus  then  they  are  not  cross-breeds  as  fhs.    But  if  some  variants  of  goldfish  are  sterile,  they  are  genetically  as  awful  as  fhs  or  blood  parrots.
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 madhu,
 
 agreed,  but  how  many  of  these  varities  are  truly  from  Carassius  auratus?  we  will  never  really  know....
 
 lance
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kuksinhyd
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:12 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 i  would  say  all  of  them  are  from  C.  auratus,  like  said  earlier,  most  of  the  goldfish  varities  have  been  line  bred,  sonmething  like  the  veil  tail  var.  for  various  species.  
 
 line  breeding,  inbreeding  is  on  thing  but  forcefully  interbreeding  of  differnt  species  should  not  be  done.  It  is  just  not  ETHICAL,  something  like  cloning,  it  just  not  ment  to  happen  in  nature
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:07 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 kuksinhyd,
 
 maybe  true...  but  think  about  it.  as  we  have  selective  bred  for  traits  of  our  choice,  we  have  mutated  the  species  to  the  shapes  and  forms  that  we  like,  is  that  borderline  ethical?  you  wouldn't  cross  an  ape  with  an  chimp  but  you  can  line  breed  or  in  breed  to  ensure  the  trait  of  your  choice  is  replicated?    in  the  end  its  just  a  question  of  how  we  humans  try  and  manipulate  nature  or  things  which  might  occur  (but  with  a  much  lower  probability)....
 
 its  not  right  to  clone,  but  ok  to  mutate?
 
 not  trying  to  be  offensive  or  anything,  but  i  have  never  been  a  big  of  fan  of  forceful  breeding,  hybrids,  nutations,  in  breeds,  line  breeds,  whatever  it  may  be....
 
 then  again,  but  its  just  me.
 
 lance
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puneit
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:20 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Guys,
 we    consume  hybrid  eggs,  watermelon....the  list  is  endless.  Everything  that  we  see,  eat  or  consume  today  is  hybrid.  The  best  of  the  parents  are  taken  and  they  are  selectively  bred,  in-bred  and  what  not-  just  for  human  exploitation.  
 Fish  business  is  no  different  from  that.  Hybrid  strains  are  produced  because  they[breeders]  know  that  these  will  sell  like  pancakes.  Plus  if  the  wild  strain  is  endangered  or  banned,  they  can  probably  sell  the  hybrid  without  much  of  a  problem  as  the  hybrid  might  not  resemble  the  parent  but  may  have  the  characters  of  it  which  we  hobbyist  like.
   
 
                                                 
Quote:                
its  not  right  to  clone,  but  ok  to  mutate?  
                 

 Mutation-IMHO  is  a  natural  process,  which  can  be  triggred  by  hazardous  environmental  conditions  though.  Here  no-one  knows  what  the  traits  of  the  offspring  will  be  as  in  most  cases  we  expect  a  normal  off-spring.  So,  I  don't  think  it  would  be  correct  to  say  that  humans  carry  out  mutation.
 If  humans  carry  it  out  and  the  offspring  is  not  of  the  desired  trait,  then  it  still  should  be  called  hybridisation  as  this  is  an  outcome  of  an  attempt  to  produce  a  better  young  one.
 Clone  or  not  to  clone  is  a  debatable  topic.  Personally,  I  have  nothing  against  cloning.  What  may  seem  right  to  me  maybe  wrong  to  you,  thus  right  and  wrong  are  relative  terms.
 Considering  cloning  of  fishes  for  now-  how  do  you  think  will  a  cloned  fish  have  any  undesired  characterstic.  See,  cloning  again  is  something  like  hybridsation  as  it  is  done  only  for  human  nedds.  We  have  changed  the  face  of  the  world.  Noble  invented  dynamite  without  knowing  what  the  consequenses  of  it  will  be,  because  that  time  the  protocols  were  not  strict  enough  to  stop  any  of  these.  These  days,  people  have  become  more  enviromental  consious,  thus  making  protocols  which  can  ban  a  particular  technique  or  research  in  mid-way  very  easy.
 The  way  a  society  thinks  decides  what  is  ethical  and  what  is  not.  Let  me  give  an  example-  Assuming  one  of  our  loved  family  member  gets  sick  and  the  only  way  to  treat  this  person  is  to  clone  the  stem  cells,  then  no  matter  how  much  one  is  against  cloning  ,  one  would  want  it  to  be  done.
 Cloning  an  entire  human  indiviual  may  not  be  accepted  by  the  society,  but  then  cloning  on  a  whole  should    not  be  considered  un-ethical.
 
 Forceful  breeding-  I  don't  think  we  can  achieve  something  that  nature  doesn't  permit.  I  mean  nothing  can  be  done  which  is  not  within  the  boundaries  of  nature.  Though  inter-breeding  of  two  species  maynot  be  happening  naturally  but  then,  if  it  can  be  done  forcefully,  then  I  believe  there  must  have  been  a  provision  of  doing  so  in  nature,  that  is  naturally.  Had  this  provision  not  been  there  in  the  nature,  then  fertilisation  would  not  have  taken  place,  or  the  offspring  would  never  sexuallly  mature.  
 
 This  is  what  I  think  on  this-
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
lancelot  wrote:                
its  not  right  to  clone,  but  ok  to  mutate?                  

 Mutation  is  a  change  brought  about  in  the  allelic  frequencies  of  a  species  with  respect  to  ecological  factors.    Its  a  very  complex  phenomenon  and  we  cant  accompalish  it  just  by  crossing  two  fishes.    We  can  in  no  way  bring  out  a  desired  mutation  unless  and  until  we  genetically  redesign  that  specimen.    If  at  all  this  is  done  then,  both  are  equally  awful.
 
 
                                                 
lancelot  wrote:                
but  i  have  never  been  a  big  of  fan  of  forceful  breeding,  hybrids,  nutations,  in  breeds,  line  breeds,  whatever  it  may  be....                  

 If  you  wanna  stand  by  this  statement  then  possibly  you  should  not  be  having  most  of  the  domesticated  fishes  which  includes  fhs.
 
 
                                                 
puneit  wrote:                
the  wild  strain  is  endangered  or  banned,  they  can  probably  sell  the  hybrid  without  much  of  a  problem  as  the  hybrid  might  not  resemble  the  parent  but  may  have  the  characters  of  it  which  we  hobbyist  like.                  

 For  eg,  if  an  Amphilophus  festae  becomes  endangered  why  should  you  want  to  buy  a  fh  instead  of  a  farm  bred  Amphilophus  festae.
 
 
                                                 
puneit  wrote:                
Mutation-IMHO  is  a  natural  process,  which  can  be  triggred  by  hazardous  environmental  conditions  though.                

 The  purpose  of  mutation  in  the  wild  is  to  make  the  species  adaptabe  to  a  newer  environmental  condition,  making  it  fit  to  survive  in  that  new  habitat  or  niche.    So  like  what  many  of  us  think  mutation  is  not  a  completely  bad  phenomenon.
 
 
                                                 
puneit  wrote:                
These  days,  people  have  become  more  enviromental  consious                

 Do  you  really  think  so?    If  so  we  would  not  be  burning  so  much  of  fossil  fuels  daily.    Except  a  very  few,  most  others  are  leased  bothered  to  be  environmental  friendly.
 
 
                                                 
puneit  wrote:                
Assuming  one  of  our  loved  family  member  gets  sick  and  the  only  way  to  treat  this  person  is  to  clone  the  stem  cells,  then  no  matter  how  much  one  is  against  cloning  ,  one  would  want  it  to  be  done.  
 Cloning  an  entire  human  indiviual  may  not  be  accepted  by  the  society,  but  then  cloning  on  a  whole  should  not  be  considered  un-ethical.                  

 WRT  the  debate  in  cloning,  the  question  is  not  why  or  how,  rather  Who  the  hell  are  we  to  take  the  job  of  Mother  Nature?
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
I  mean  nothing  can  be  done  which  is  not  within  the  boundaries  of  nature.  Though  inter-breeding  of  two  species  maynot  be  happening  naturally  but  then,  if  it  can  be  done  forcefully,  then  I  believe  there  must  have  been  a  provision  of  doing  so  in  nature,  that  is  naturally.  Had  this  provision  not  been  there  in  the  nature,  then  fertilisation  would  not  have  taken  place,  or  the  offspring  would  never  sexuallly  mature.                  

 There  is  no  way  you  can  compare  domestication  with  the  working  principles  of  Nature.    In  nature  every  phenomenon  has  a  terrific  purpose  or  a  reason.    Whats  the  reason  except  profits  for  the  creation  of  domesticated  fishes  like  fhs  or  blood  parrots  or  other  domesticated  goldfish.    In  nature  there  are  a  lot  of  geographical  constraints  that  inhibit  hybridization  and  yes  it  does  happen  in  the  wild  once  in  a  while  but  with  a  valid  purpose.    But  in  a  very  small  enclosure  like  the  aquarium  fishes  are  very  easily  forced  to  hybridize.    Have  a  group  of  8  malawi  cichlids  in  each  species  and  3-4  species  in  big  tank.    They  will  never  hybridize.    Its  we  who  force  hybridization  for  our  own  profits.
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puneit
Frequent Visitor to IAH
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Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 247
Location: Delhi, India

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
For  eg,  if  an  Amphilophus  festae  becomes  endangered  why  should  you  want  to  buy  a  fh  instead  of  a  farm  bred  Amphilophus  festae.  
                 

 Yes,  I  would  go  for  a  FH  in  that  case,  unless  I  am  very  much  confident  that  I  can  breed  the  Amphilophus  festae  in  my  tank.  We  are  not  novice  aquarists,  hence  we  can  keep  them.  
 What  I  am  trying  to  say  is  that,  I  would  not  advocate  selling  of  an  endangered  species  to  a  person  who  doesn't  know  A-B-C's  of  keeping  that  organism.  For  me,  its  a  major  responsibility  to  keep  such  an  animal  or  plant  for  that  matter.  In  that  case  I  would  recommend  having  a  species  whose  loss,  doesn't  have  a  striking  effect  on  the  population
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
So  like  what  many  of  us  think  mutation  is  not  a  completely  bad  phenomenon.                  

 I  agree  to  this  statement.
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
Do  you  really  think  so?  If  so  we  would  not  be  burning  so  much  of  fossil  fuels  daily.  Except  a  very  few,  most  others  are  leased  bothered  to  be  environmental  friendly.  
                 

 
 I  certainly  think  so.  Do  you  think  shifting  from  one  source  of  energy  to  another  is  an  over-night  process.  Do  we  have  efficient  alternative  sources  of  energy?  With  efficient,  I  mean,  are  they  cost  effective{even  with  huge  subsidization  solar  panels  still  cost  a  lot}  and  are  they  anywhere  close  to  what  we  kind  of  services  we  get  through  fossil  fuels?
 Saying  this  is  very  easy,  but  materialisation  will  take  lot  of  time.  Till  then,  though  the  use  of  fossil  fuels  will  not  reduce,  but  stren  measures  to  reduce  pollution  to  a  minimum  is  and  will  be  on  rise.
   
 
                                                 
Quote:                
 Who  the  hell  are  we  to  take  the  job  of  Mother  Nature?  
                 

 We  have  taken  over  so  many  jobs  of  Mother  Nature,  why  create  an  obstacle  in  this  one.  If  someone  thinks  cloning  is  im-moral,  then  I  think  that  person  should  reject  all  medical  aid,  as  then  it  would  be  fighting  against  nature.  In  the  present  world,  survival  of  the  fittest  doesn't  hold  good  for  human  beings.  Its  more  of  survival  of  the  best  medical  facilities.  Imagine,  so  many  of  us  would  never  have  seen  the  light  of  the  day  if  not  for  medical  facilities.  Is  not  not  going  against  the  nature  to  protect  a  species  which  is  endangered.  One  can  very  well  take  it  in  a  way  that  Mother  Nature  doesn't  want  this  species  anymore  on  the  planet  due  to  reasons  which  probably  we  don't  understand.
 Every  second  we  are  fighting  Mother  Nature  in  one  way  or  the  another.  I  don't  think  so  it  is  justified,  that  one  remembers  Mother  Nature  for  few  actions  and  forget  her  otherwise.
 
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
Its  we  who  force  hybridization  for  our  own  profits.    
                 

 I  don't  disagree  to  it.
 Hybridization-does  it  not  mean-  creating  something  for  profit??  This  thing  has  a  flip  side  to  it.  The  wild  strain  is  not  poached  upon  and  is  left  in  its  own  accord.  We  make  more  money  with  the  hybrids,  hobbyists  are  more  satisfied  with  them,  they  get  what  they  want,    why  want  a  wild  strain  then?
 FH-  They  have  characters  of  6  different  speices,  the  characters  which  people  like.  They  are  getting  those  in  one  fish-  why  not  have  it  if  it  can  survive  and  reproduce.  Letting  loose  it  in  local  waters  is  im-moral  as  it  may  adversly  affect  the  ecosystem  there.  But  as  long  as  it  is  in  cages  its  fine,  why  because  it  was  produced  for  that  particular  purpose.
 Blood  parrots-  They  are  for  sure  attractive  fishes-  again  the  strain  was  produced  thinking  of  the  people  who  would  buy  it.  Now  it  becomes  their  responsibility  to  make  sure  such  species  are  not  introduced  to  local  water  bodies.
 For  thousands  of  years  its  profit  what  we  humans  seek.  
 
 But  now,  an  attempt  is  being  made  by  people  all  over  the  world  to  live  in  harmony  with  what  is  left  in  nature  and  ofcourse  not  compromising  on  profits.
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