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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade
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Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade
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manju
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Recently  I  have  seen  in  paper  that  hobbyist  had  bred  P.denisonii  in  Chennai,  same  with  E.canarensis.
 
 I  was  in  Kochi  on  that  day  so  unable  to  tell  the  exact  day.  Might  be  14th  Oct  -17th  Oct.  Hobbyist  from  Kochi  can  helpus  finding  the  details.
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beta
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Captain  Tarun:
 While  I  respect  your  wish  to  bring  awareness,  the  topic  is  at  best  a  grey  area.  We  really  do  not  know  which  are  the  endangered  species  in  India.  You  can  only  make  a  wild  guess  at  it  based  on  what  you  feel  is  the  most  exported  fishes  out  of  India.  What  I  really  don't  like  is  people  making  insinuations  about  exporters  or  that  matter  of  anybody  else  just  based  on  hearsay.  If  something  needs  to  be  stated  as  a  fact...  show  us  the  numbers  and  the  proof.
 FYI  Commercial  breeders  in  Mumbai,  Chennai  and  Government  scientists  have  been  trying  to  breed  them  for  quite  sometime  both  through  natural  methods  as  well  as  hormonal  injections.
 Vyas  is  the  only  hobbyist  in  India  that  I  know  of  who  has  atleast  witnessed  denisonii  spawning  in  his  tank.
 
 Manju:
 There  were  reports  in  the  paper  that  denisonii  was  bred  in  one  of  the  Chennai  farms.  The  scientists  aren't  convinced  so  far.
 To  my  knowledge  I  was  the  only  in  Chennai  who  bred  canarensis.  The  f1  were  equally  distributed  to  3  hobbyists  and  atleast  2  of  them  are  accomplished  breeders  who  have  years  of  experience  in  breeding  fishes  both  native  and  exotic.  The  f1's  are  too  young  to  breed  so  i'm  not  sure  who  the  paper  was  talking  about.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1899
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trevor
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Captain  Tarun
 For  your  information
 The  Aquarist  Society  of  Karnataka  is  a  powerful  semi  Government  body  made  up  of  Hobbyists,  Government  officials,  Scientists  and  politicians.
 Started  at  the  behest  of  the  ‘Government  of  Karnataka’.
 With  the  patron  ‘The  Minister  of  fisheries’.
 And  the  President  the  state  ‘Director  of  Fisheries’.
 And  with  quite  a  few  IAH  members  on  the  board.  
 
 Unlike  aquarium  clubs  this  society  has  teeth  and  will  be  able  to  hit  hard.  
 If  any  untoward  fishy  activities  are  going  on  in  state  of  Karnataka  please  bring  it  to  my  notice  with  proof.
 We  have  the  clout  to  stop  it  permanently.
 Till  then  please  refrain  from  shooting  in  the  air.
 
 Hon.  Secretary,  ASK
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fishyman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 FYI
 The  point  is  to  stop  the  commercial  export  of  wild  caught  and  not  the  ones  bred  in  captivity.
 I  guess  the  point  between  the  line  is  missed.
 
 Are  we  waiting  for  the  specie  to  come  under  endangered  levels?
 The  point  of  contention  is  to  bring  a  stop  on  commercial  exploitation  of  wild  caughts.
 
 
 The  link  given  by  Betta  shows  that  P.Denisonii  shows  that  It  is  difficult  identify  whether  the  fish  is  bred  in  captivity  or  wild  caught.
 In  my  last  visit  to  Europe  i  came  across  the  Belgiums  largest  aquarium  shop  called  New  Brussels  Aquariums.
 This  shop  was  selling  was  p.  denisonii  and  etroplus  Canarensis  and  suretensis  exported  from  India.
 I  am  not  aware  of  any  place  in  India  where  they  are  being  bred.ofcourse  it  means  they  are  wild  caught.
 
 some  links  talking  about  endangered  specie
 
 The  address  of  the  shop  is
 New  brussels  Aquariums
 Boulevard  Barthelemylaan  39
 1000  Brussels
 
 Tel  02/  513  9278
 fax  02/512  8266
 
 If  I  am  writting  something  here  It  means  I  have  something  concrete  and  not  shooting  here.
 I  would  like  if  such  insulting  words  are  not  used  by  admins.  doesnt  suit  the  profile.
 
 I  am  little  upset  as  this  topis  went  in  wrong  direction  and  the  point  of  contention  was  overlooked.
 regards
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Tirtha C
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Guys  guys  guys...........  now  stop  please.  Take  a  deep  breath....  close  your  eyes  and  say  OOOOOOOOM.  Have  a  chill  pill....  it's  weekend  ....  Enjoy.   Drinking  
 
 Why  we  are  running  behind  the  exporter  when  we  are  also  doing  the  same  mistek????  You  want  to  save  Natives?  stop  keeping  them.  Easy  and  simple.  If  the  demand  goes  down,  supply  will  also  be  reduced.  It's  upto  us....  so  Act  accordingly.  Thumb Up
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Hi  Tarun,
 
 Not  intending  to  flame  the  thread....
 
 If  you  have  a  grouse  please  PM  the  admins  and  I  am  sure  they  will  take  care  of  your  concern.  If  you  have  the  name  of  the  person  exporting  E.canarensis  you  can  PM  that  too,  If  you  are  apprehensive  about   making  the  name  public.
 
 Admins  were  the  first  persons  to  go  to  the  wild  and  begin  to  document  the  fish,  even  when  the  Government  fisheries  college  and  the  learned  persons  there  did  not  mention  it  at  all  in  their  literature.
 
 But  flaring  against  the  Mods  or  admins  is  not  a  good  practise  which  we  members  simply  cannot  condone.  I  hope  you  get  my  point.
 
 Let  us  follow  Tirtha's  advice  and   Drinking   since  it  is  weekend.
 
 Regards,
 Nayak.  
 
 P.S:  I  am  sure  it  is  not  exported  from  Karnataka,  Since  the  fish  is  from  my  native  and  I  know  regarding  the  strict  vigilance  kept  in  the  highly  guarded  reserve  forest.
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aquadip2000
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Dear  Guys  guys,
 
 Now  let  me  tell  you  that  we  at  IAH  had  got  every  thing  ready  to  have  the  E.  Canarensis  banned  from  export  a  long  while  ago  and  a  few  know  that  the  trip  was  actually  a  fact  finding  misson  .
 
 Even  members  of  this  trip  were  not  aware....  as  everyone  was  busy  catching  fish  and  enjoying  their  trip  a  section  was  studying  the  no  of  fish  in  this  region  .  After  we  submitted  our  finding  to  the  concerned  authorities  they  were  rest  assured  that  there  is  no  need  to  stop  exploitation  of  this  fish.  Well  this  was  a  long  time  ago  .....  nothing  has  been  done  after  that.
 
 Actually  Tarun  let  me  bring  to  your  notice  that  more  than  the  number  of  fish  being  exported  there  are  a  lot  more  fish  reaching  a  heavenly  abode.  The  reason  use  of  pesticide  in  neighboring  fields...  to  my  knowledge  not  only  E  Canarensis  but  a  lot  of  other  fish  are  also  washed  away  .  And  a  small  number  of  this  fish  is  forms  a  part  of  the  food  chain  for  the  locals  around  this  region.   Actually  export  of  this  fish  is  not  done  in  such  great  numbers  nowadays  as  the  market  for  this  fish  has  dropped  greatly  from  what  has  been  commented  on  most  sites.
 
 So  please  cool  off...and  perhaps  making  a  trip  in  person  to  the  region  where  the  E.  Canerensis  is  found  will  settle  a  lot  of  your  apprehension.IAH   has  very  well  documented  the  place  where  the  fish  is  found  so  reaching  the  place  should  not  be  all  that  difficult.
 
 Regards
 Adip  
 
 ADA  India
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fishyman
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Hi  All,
 Rasik,  I  am  not  flaring  against  any  one.
 The  information  i  wanted  pass  was  taken  personally  and  I  wonder  why?
 anyways  Lets  bring  this  to  end.
 Bon  Weekend
 
 regards
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ArnabPDas
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Not  meaning  to  restart  the  debate  but  wanted  to  highlight  an  often  missed  point.  Successful  captive  breeding  on  a  commercial  scale  for  a  threatened  species  does  not  necessarily  ensure  its  survival  in  the  wild.  
 
 Case  in  point  is  Epalzeorhynchos  Bicolor  (the  well-known  red-tailed  black  shark)  which  has  been  farm-bred  on  a  large  scale  for  nearly  two  decades  now.  Yet  on  the  IUCN  Red  List  of  threatened  and  extinct  species  it  has  been  (correctly)  listed  as  EW  =  Extinct  in  the  Wild.  Reason  for  this  is  these  fish  are  no  more  found  in  their  wild  origins  in  Thailand  presumably  because  of  overfishing  for  aquarium  trade  and  habitat  loss.  Even  if  P.  Denisonii  is  eventually  farm-bred  on  a  large  scale  that  can't  ensure  fishing  for  wild  specimens  will  stop  --  there  will  always  be  a  market  for  it  at  the  "right"  price  that  holds  up  against  farm-bred  alternatives.
 
 At  this  point  I  don't  think  there  is  enough  data  on  the  subject  and  that's  what  we  should  need  first  before  engaging  in  any  meaningful  debate.  I  have  not  seen  a  single  reliable  source  that  has  the  following  information  for  Denosonii  barbs
 
 
    -  Geographical  distribution
     -  Lifespan
     -  Current  estimated  population  and  minimum  poplulation  doubling  time
     -  Current  estimated  rate  of  harvest  ("harvest",  not  export  --  I'm  sure  many  die  before  they  end  up  in  the  cargo  hold  and  then  again  many  die  in  transit  and  the  remaining  ones  die  in  various  retailers'/hobbyists'  tanks,  eventually.

 
 
 Before  we  have  the  above  information,  any  guess  is  shooting  in  the  dark  and  any  debate  will  be  without  much  substance.  At  this  point  we  don't  even  know  if  we  should  at  all  be  worried  or  not  (though  I  personally  "feel"  we  should)  and  if  yes,  how  much.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Thank  you,  Arnab.  Good  to  hear  the  voice  of  reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 To  All,
 
 The  reason  to  post  this  was  not  to  fight  amongst  each  other  but  to  try  and  see  what  we  as  IAH  Members  and  as  Hobbyist  can  do  to  improve  upon  or  act  on  a  data  presented  to  us.
 
 According  to  my  personal  view  the  first  thing  that  we  as  members  to  the  forum  can  probably  do  is   have  a  database  of  Native  Indian  Fishes,  with  details  to  environmental  conditions  that  they  are  found  in  including  the  plants  etc.  Let  there  be  a  Moderator  like  may  be  Rahul,  Beta  etc   who  have  a  very  good  knowledge  on  Native  Fishes  and  their  IDs  and  then  this  database  can  be  corrected  and  up  kept  to  always  show  the  right  up-to-date  information.  When  we  go  for  any  regional  collection  trips  any  data  can  be  uploaded  or  added  to  the  same  database.
 
 Likewise  we  can  a  native  aquatic  plant,  invertebrates  database  (  this  can  encompass  both  Freshwater,  Brackish  and  Marine)  
 
 This  way  at  lease  we  are  able  to  document  some  information  on  these  fishes.  
 
 An  example  to  this  effect  can  be  found  at  :-
 
 http://db.angfa.org.au/
 
 
 The  other  thing  that  we  can  do  is  also  document  if  we  were  able  to  breed  these  natives  under  Aquarium  condition  (  captive  Breeding)   and  how  successful  we  were   ...  may  be  we  are  able  to  breed  some  Endangered  Fishes  in  captivity  ...
 
 The  other  thing  that  I  feel  as  members  we  can  do  is  to  report  any  exploitation  or  Environmental  issues  which  is  contributing  to  population  decline  of  a  particular  fish  and  through  ASK  may  be  convey  it  to  the  right  authorities  so  that  some  corrective  action  can  be  taken.  Similarly  local  Hobbyist  clubs  can  take  a  reporting  action  to  local  Government  Offices  or  NGOs,  Publication  etc   ...
 
 Recently  MPEDA  (The  marine  Products  Export  Development  Authority  –  Ministry  of  Commerce  &  Industry,  Government  of  India)  had  a  green  certification  workshop  and  the  objective  was  to  :-
 
 -  A  certification  programme  can  be  developed  for  indigenous  fishes  and  cultured  exotic  ornamental  fish  species
 –  Possibility  of  obtaining  of  Geographical  Indication  for  Puntius  denisonii,  and  a  couple  of  other  species  such  as  Carinotetradon  travancoricus,  Etroplus  canarensis  etc.  –  those  which  are  endemic  to  a  particular  geographic  area.  
 –  Development  of  a  training  programme  to  equip  the  collectors  for  responsible  utilization  of  the  fishery  resource  and  also  reduce  the  loss  of  fish  due  to  poor  fishing  methods,  storage,  handling  and  packing  techniques  (fish  welfare).  This  will  not  only  ensure  eco  friendliness  and  fish  welfare  but  will  improve  the  quality  of  fish  and  ensure  a  socially  responsible  business.
 –  Eco-labeling/Green  Certification  of  the  exported  fish  in  international  market.
 –  All  these  actions  will  link  up  the  fishers  to  the  international  market  and  promote  Brand  building  of  Indian  Ornamental  fish.
 
 The  Green  Certification  can  be  of  great  benefit  for  many  poor  (rural)  people  in  India,  for  them  to  earn  a  living  and  have  a  better  life.  
 
 http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/05/15/stories/2008051550331100.htm
 
 http://www.aquafeed.com/read-article.php?id=2569
 
 http://www.mpeda.com/TC-ofd.pdf
 
 
 There  is  a  similar  programme  for  the  Cichlids  of  Africa  -  Read  More  at  http://cichlidpress.com/smgfund/index.html
 
 Also  some  project  by  ANGFA:-
 
 1.  http://www.angfa.org.au/ftp/Save_Ewens_Pond_low_res.pdf
 2.  http://www.angfa.org.au/pro-wan.html
 
 At  the  end  of  the  day  we  as  members  have  to  decide  in  what  way  we  can  contribute  to  the  cause  to  preserve  and  upkeep  our  natural  resources,  forests  ,  rivers,  lakes  ,  streams  and  with  it  the  countless  flora  and  fauna...either  we  can  just  be  quiet  about  it  or  start  a  small  collective  movement  in  terms  of  data  accumulation,  Information  sharing  on  Environment,  reporting  etc  ...
 
 I  would  like  to  end  this  note  not  to  start  an  other  controversy  but  with  what  ever  ideas  the  members  would  like  to  bring  into  the  forum  and  then  look  at  it  collectively  for  an  action  plan  at  a  local  hobbyists  level  to  save  our  environment  ....
 
 Best  Wishes
 
 Sujoy
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trevor
Committed Member of IAH
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Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 4290
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade Reply with quote

 Good  post  Joyban.  I  appreciate  your  views  and  sentiments.
 
 I  hope  you  guys  know  that  all  the  three  Indian  Cichlids  are  used  by  the  locals  as  food  fish.
 
 It  will  an  uphill  task  maybe  well  near  impossible  to  convince  the  hungry  local  people  to  throw  their  endangered  catch  back  into  the  water.
 
 Perhaps  they  may  throw  us  into  the  water.   I  hope  you  guys  get  the  message.   Chuckle
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