I am working on the filamentosus group of fishes and from what I can see the fish posted here as P. assimilis is P. filamentosus.
These are from Sita nadi and they heve very different morphometrics compared to P. assimilis
One major difference is the mouth, and lenght of barbels. I have attached a head picture of a P. assimilis registered in the Zoological Survey of India SRS (ZSI/SRS F.8371, 84mm SL)
Right now I am trying to do some research on this group of fishes. Have you guys seen any specimens from canara? I got a batch from Andrew from mangalore (south Karnataka) which look very different with vary faint black markings at the tip of the caudal fin.
If you guys have seen live specimens from Kallada or specimens from canara please give me your comments. Even cauvery specimens are different.
Please share more info and photos which would help clear up a few misconceptions. Have also attached the photo of the manglore fish for you guys.
There is a paper on P. rohani which has the complete set of filamentosus fish for you. You can download the paper here....
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:13 am Post subject: Re: Puntius Assimilis
Hi Marc , not sure why you think we have got P. assimilis and P.filamentosus mixed up i.e the wrong way around ?
The red fish are Filament barbs ! the Assimilis have visible barbels and a sub terminal mouth , and the dorsal filaments grow differently ! ?
Just curious Marc have you done any work on P. exclamatio ? has it got a mid body spot ? because a pal of mine had an Assimilis type fish with mid body spot and a Filamentous type also sporting mid body spot , both sent courtesy of Andrew Rao !
This group is great fun but very complex and poorly underdstood ?
please explain why you think we are mixed up :cheer:
Marc I just read that excellent paper and apologise for my mouth description , I described Assimilis's mouth as subterminal : I should have said underslung / inferior
Thank you so much guys for the response. More about me......the filamentosus group of fish is a part of my Ph.D problem.
IAH Chennai guys introduced me to this wonderful forum. The P.rohani paper has a part of my Ph.D findings and I published it along with Dr. Rema Devi. Right now Iam working on the P. assimilis group. To my knowledge there are two or maybe three species with inferior mouth which are being treated as P. assimilis. In the P. rohani we have mentioned that.
Anrew Rao was good enough to send me some live specimens from Sita nadi (the one shown by Ashwin and the top one of Nayak) and mangalore (the pic i attached). These are P. filamentosus and not P. assimilis as the mouth is subterminal and not inferior. The head pic I posted is a P. assimilis head from Kerala almost 200 miles away from the type locality. I am now searching for some specimens from karnataka with an inferior mouth like the one Nayak has posted. The one Nayak has posted (second pic) is the true P. assimilis from the type locality.
And sorry Andy, I was late into the discussion and did not see your explanation earlier. I guess you guys are not mixed up.
Thanks ashwin and nayak for the photos. There is one more fish from Cauvery (fig I plate I )in the P. rohani paper) which is the second species of P. assimilis which I am trying to revalidate as P. lepidus. If I get some adult specimens from canara I will be able to separate these two. The P. assimilis from kerala could be a new one too, all this can be decided only after topotypes are obtained.
Nayak, If possible post some more pics of the canara P.assimilis as this is the valid topotype.
And answering Andy, I have not examined a single specimen of P. exclamatio yet. The one I have shown in the paper is courtesy Beta.
I have asked Andrew for some specimens and am hoping he sends them. I would be really interested in seeing those pictures of the fish you mention. You never know they may be two species being called P. exclamatio afterall.
Thanks once again guys for the wonderful interaction. I am watching this topic for you comments. Anything provided in the form of photos, morphometrics, scale counts, specimens, information on localities and all brainwaves will be greatly appreciated and duely acknowledged in any publication resulting.
The first pic in Nayak's post on this page 4 has been identified as Puntius filamentosus. It is from type locality Kumaradara river which is a tributary of the Netravathi river, the main river flowing through South Canara, near Mangalore.
We have not found any Puntius assimilis in this type locality.
But in paper by Rohan Pethiyagoda and Maurice Kottelat they have mentioned clearly
"Material examined. – Topotypes - 5 subadults, 43.3–53.2 mm SL,
WHT 6250, Nethravati River, 42 km from Madikeri, on the
Mangalore–Mysore road (former “South Canara”), Karnataka State,
India, 16 Mar.1996".
This is something we have to look into further.
Regarding the pics by Nayak he has already stared describing our collection.
Thanks trevor for intoducing me to the other thread. It has some really awesome photos of P. assimilis. I strongly believe that there are now two species with inferior mouth.
I also feel that the type locality has both P. filamentosus and P. assimilis. Any morphometric/meristic data would be appreciated.
The specimen from cauvery(in P.rohani paper) is very different with a almost circular spot. The Pic Nayak posted in this thread has a P. assimilis with a circular spot, when compared to the ones posted there which have a elongate spot. Are they from the same locality or different locality in Karnataka?
Thanks once again for the interest shown......Best regards, marcus
I am uploading the pics of all the types of P.filamentosus and P.assimilis with me as of now. I have water marked with type locality and name to avoid any miscommunication. I am also enclosing their sizes when pictured. Please feel free to query
1)
Size-3.5"
2)
Size-3.0"
3)
Size-2.0"
4)
Size-2.5"
5)
Size-2.5"
6)
Size-1.5"
7)
Size-2.0"
8)
Size-1.5"
9)
Size-1.5"
10)
Size-2.0"
All these fishes were caught by us. There are threads in the Fish collection and study trip forum about these collection trips. Only the Valparai variety was given to me by one of my good friend Madhu.
There are type localities were we have seen these fishes, but not collected. Sharavathi, Kali etc etc. The fish collection trips season is going to start by the end of October. If you are interested we can and are willing to take you along with us
Regards,
Nayak.
P.S: Any papers regarding Rasbora daniconius varieties of south India will be appreciated
I now feel that the P. assimilis from Valparai and Sita nadi are the same species. Do the males get filaments?
But there is one more species with a round caudal blothch and the black band at the caudal tip very faint or absent. Have you seen one like this anywhere in the wild or with your fellow hobbyist?
I will surely try to join you guys on a trip..
Gimme a day or two, will find out what literature on Rasbora I can ruffle up.
hey Nayak, I was sitting and examining the collection of P. filamentosus I have. I found one with a mouth a bit different lower than the others. This specimen was sent by Andrew Rao from Sita nadi (pic attached)
I have a crazy feeling that P. assimilis and P. filamentosus from Sita are the same species!!!!
Sorry if I sound a bit weird but jus trying to think out of the box. I suddenly feel that the mouth placement changes with the habitat for example fish in deeper pools with muddy bottoms have inferior mouth with long barbels to seek food in the dark bottom and the ones in fast flowing water have subterminal mouth to catch food on the flow and their barbels are small as they have no use in fast water.
I may sound crazy but please give me your opinions. I came to this conclusion after I found only the mouth and barbels to differ in both the fish. Do you feel the pic I attached is P. filamentosus of P. assimilis????
hey Nayak, I was sitting and examining the collection of P. filamentosus I have. I found one with a mouth a bit different lower than the others. This specimen was sent by Andrew Rao from Sita nadi (pic attached)
I have a crazy feeling that P. assimilis and P. filamentosus from Sita are the same species!!!!
Sorry if I sound a bit weird but jus trying to think out of the box. I suddenly feel that the mouth placement changes with the habitat for example fish in deeper pools with muddy bottoms have inferior mouth with long barbels to seek food in the dark bottom and the ones in fast flowing water have subterminal mouth to catch food on the flow and their barbels are small as they have no use in fast water.
I may sound crazy but please give me your opinions. I came to this conclusion after I found only the mouth and barbels to differ in both the fish. Do you feel the pic I attached is P. filamentosus of P. assimilis????
Trick question if I have ever seen one :grin:
I think you are asking me how I ID my fish. Here goes.....
Reliable method:
P.assimilis: Inferior mouth, Maxillary barbels.
P.filamentosus: Sub-terminal mouth, No Maxillary barbels visible to naked eye.
Comparative profile picture
Comparative frontal Picture
Unreliable methods:
1)Black and Red bands on the Caudal fin lobe in P.assimilis. Only Black, Black and white , sometimes bands absent in P.filamentosus.
2) Color differentiation as mention earlier in this thread.
3) Dorsal fin rays differentiation as mentioned earlier.
4) Feeding habits.
5) Juveniles of P.filamentosus looks different from parents whereas Juvenile P.assimilis are miniature replicas of parents.
I am calling the above unreliable because it depends on the size of the specimen. Only comparative analysis of Adult specimen might validate these differences.
Based on my experience you have posted a picture of P.assimilis in your post above
I have a crazy feeling that P. assimilis and P. filamentosus from Sita are the same species!!!!
Sorry if I sound a bit weird but jus trying to think out of the box. I suddenly feel that the mouth placement changes with the habitat for example fish in deeper pools with muddy bottoms have inferior mouth with long barbels to seek food in the dark bottom and the ones in fast flowing water have subterminal mouth to catch food on the flow and their barbels are small as they have no use in fast water.
Sita river where we found P.assimilis with inferior mouth and Maxillary barbels is a fast west flowing river. Around 75% of it flows through the Western Ghats and only after reaching the narrow coastal plains of western coast does it slow down near the estuary. So the bottom is essentially sand, Gravel or pebbles. rarely muddy bottoms or deep pools.
Tunga and Bhadra where we found P.filamentosus with sub-terminal mouth and no Maxillary barbels are east flowing rivers, meandering through vast areas of Deccan Plateau, there by slowing down considerably and thus having muddy bottoms.
So it is actually the reverse of the above quoted line of thought
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius Assimilis
Thanks man! You jus sent my brainwave down the drain.
Nayak your mouth position method IDing looks reliable and the West flowing and East flowing river is a good insight
One more query. I got six specimens from andrew and only one has this inferior mouth. Do you have any idea of a mixed population anywhere especially where the river meets with other drainages
I guess I need some topotypes from Canara to compare. I have P. assimilis from kerala, cauvery, and this one specimen from canara (sent by andrew) and am sure one of them is a different species.
Thanks once again for the interest shown. Continue posting your insights.
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Puntius Assimilis
Hey Nayak, one more character I noticed. The caudal blotch in the sita species is rounded, the blotch on valparai sp is elongate, the blotch on the fish I have is also elongate.
Do you have P.assimilis from sita with elongate blotch? Do the caudal blotch vary a lot among fishes of the same population?
Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Puntius Assimilis
Marc,
First of all, I would like to give a clarification. Madhu called me to tell me that the fishes he had given me were from the "Bhavani River" and not from Valparai. It is a river originating in the Western ghats and flowing east. So we have this P.assimilis in both the east and west flowing rivers, Irrespective of rocky or muddy bottoms.
Secondly we have not come across any mixed population as of now.
I have posted two pictures of P.assimilis from Sita nadi in my earlier post, Pic #6 and pic#7. You can see that in the smaller specimen the blotch is rounded and there is a bar at the Caudal peduncle. In the larger specimen the round blotch has started becoming elongate and the black bar is fading away. The smaller fish is still a Juvie where as the bigger one is a sub-adult. So as the fishes grow their markings change, and I cannot comment definitely as long as I do not have a fully grown specimen.
In the wild we see the Juvies and sub-adults near the banks which are easier to catch and transport. The larger specimens are always in deep water, and we do not have the necessary nets to nab them. We can of course take the help of local fishermen, but the problem is they use Gill nets. Alcohol, we have till now not used the pickling kind which we aim to remedy in our next trips.
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I should have said underslung / inferior 
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