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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - ID Barb
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ID Barb
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Marc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:42 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Kastor,  with  regards  to  your  above  post,  I  feel  IAH  already  has  two  forums  dedicated  for  such  subjects  where  discussions  on  exploration  and  native  fishes  are  encouraged.  
 
 These  forums  can  be  more  useful  than  a  single  sticky  thread  which  may  get  a  bit  tangled  (confusing  Shocked  )  if  all  of  us  use  it  for  different  species.  
 
 You  can  see  that  there  are  threads  on  specific  species  that  keep  surfacing  from  time  to  time  which  indeed  give  a  lot  of  information.   Smile   
 
 This  is  just  an  opinion.........admins  to  decide  Thumb Up
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Yogesh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Picture  of  Puntius  sp.  commonly  found  at  Tungareshwar,  Vasai.
 
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Marc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Looks  like  P.  mahecola  is  quite  common  there.  Further  research  might  prove  that  the  northern  population  is  different  from  the  southern  one  and  then  maybe  P.  amphibius  would  become  a  valid  species  Smile
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 What  happens  when  you  find  the  middle  one  from  north  and  south  population?
 
 Juveniles  from  Kali  river  basin.........from  two  different  locations  at  around  1.5  inches.
 
 
 
 Perils  of  collecting  from  the  wild.....quarantine  is  a  must.  Fungus  on  the  mouth  of  one,when  caught!  Hope  it  survives.
 
 
 Regards,
 Nayak.
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Marc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Now  this  thread  is  becoming  really  interesting  Thumb Up  
 
 Nayak,
 
 Good  question.  Now  to  answer  your  question.....
 
 There  are  three  main  species  involved  in  this  complex  a)  P.  mahecola  b)  P.  melanostigma  c)  P.  amphibius
 
 As  per  the  present  taxonomic  status,  P.  mahecola  described  by  Valenciennes  is  a  valid  speceis...it  is  a  barb  with  a  black  caudal  spot.  P.  melanostigma  was  described  by  Day  which  is  also  a  barb  with  a  caudal  spot....therefore  now  a  subjective  synonym  which  means  in  simple  terms  "the  author  is  not  very  sure".
 
 Now  the  type  locality  of  P.  mahecola  is  mahe  (kerala)  hence  the  name  mahe-cola.
 
 The  type  locality  of  P.  melanostigma  is  also  kerala.  The  type  locality  of  P.  amphibius  is  bombay.
 
 Now  we  come  to  your  part  of  the  question......what  happens  when  we  collect  a  fish  from  middle.  As  per  current  taxonomic  standing,  if  your  fish  has  a  caudal  blotch  (where  ever  collected  from)  it  is  P.  mahecola.  If  your  fishes  are  consistently  deeper  in  body  shape  and  are  from  Kerala  close  to  Wynaad  then  the  species  P.  melanostigma  could  be  revalidated.
 
 Now  the  identity  of  P.  amphibius  is  in  question  as  it  is  known  to  be  a  barb  without  any  body  markings.  This  is  because  the  drawing  of  Valenciennes  and  the  syntypes  in  the  French  museum  are  fish  without  any  markings.  P&K  2005  argue  that  specimens  of  P.  mahecola  and  P.  amphibius  were  collected  during  the  same  time  (early  19th  centuary)  and  one  lot  has  a  spot  and  the  other  lot  does  not.  Therefore  they  conclude  that  P.  amphibius  is  indeed  a  fish  without  caudal  spot.  One  thing  they  did  not  consider  much  is  ill-preserved  specimens  and  fish  in  stress  do  lose  the  spot.
 
 Another  intereting  fact  is  that  there  is  one  more  fish  P.  arenatus  which  does  not  have  a  caudal  spot.  The  identity  of  P.  arenatus  was  not  discussed  by  P&K  2005.
 
 Now  to  sum  up  with  a  few  of  my  contemplations.  
 
 1)  If  you  find  a  barb  near  bombay  without  a  caudal  spot  then  that  is  P.  amphibius.  
 2)  A  deep  barb  from  Kerala  with  caudal  spot  could  be  P.  melanostigma
 
 Unless  the  above  two  species  are  either  validated  or  made  'objective'  synonyms  we  have  to  id  any  fish  with  just  a  caudal  blotch  and  no  other  body  markings  as  P.  mahecola
 
 Hope  I  was  able  to  throw  some  light  into  this  Very Happy  .
 
 Below  are  some  pics  from  my  collection  which  could  indeed  be  these  fishes,  but  needs  further  investigation.
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vyastk
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

                                                   
Marc  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Now  the  type  locality  of  P.  mahecola  is  mahe  (kerala)  hence  the  name  mahe-cola.
 
                 

 
 Do  you  by  any  chance  have  the  paper?.  Never  knew  the  fish  was  named  after  my  hometown!.
 
 Strangely  have  never  seen  this  fish  around  those  locales!
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beta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

                                                   
Marc  wrote  (View  Post):                

 
 Hope  I  was  able  to  throw  some  light  into  this  Very Happy  .
 
 Below  are  some  pics  from  my  collection  which  could  indeed  be  these  fishes,  but  needs  further  investigation.                

 
 As  a  moderator  you  are  supposed  to  analyze  all  the  specimens/literature  and  reduce  the  confusion  surrounding  them   Very Happy
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Marc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

                                                   
beta  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
Marc  wrote  (View  Post):                

 
 Hope  I  was  able  to  throw  some  light  into  this  Very Happy  .
 
 Below  are  some  pics  from  my  collection  which  could  indeed  be  these  fishes,  but  needs  further  investigation.                

 
 As  a  moderator  you  are  supposed  to  analyze  all  the  specimens/literature  and  reduce  the  confusion  surrounding  them   Very Happy                

 
 Sorry  Shocked  
 
 That  was  the  best  I  could  manage.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Expectations  are  very  high  at  the  moment!
 
 Just  Joking,  it  was  commendable  effort  putting  all  that  down  Thumb Up
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Kastor48252
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 This  is  all  very  interesting  info.
 Marc,  you  are  an  asset  to  IAH  dude.  Hats  off  to  you.  Bow
 Keep  up  the  good  work.   Rock On
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Shankar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Another  mahecola  for  you.   Very Happy  
 
 
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Yogesh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

                                                   
Marc  wrote  (View  Post):                
There  are  three  main  species  involved  in  this  complex  a)  P.  mahecola  b)  P.  melanostigma  c)  P.  amphibius
 
 As  per  the  present  taxonomic  status,  P.  mahecola  described  by  Valenciennes  is  a  valid  speceis...it  is  a  barb  with  a  black  caudal  spot.  P.  melanostigma  was  described  by  Day  which  is  also  a  barb  with  a  caudal  spot....therefore  now  a  subjective  synonym  which  means  in  simple  terms  "the  author  is  not  very  sure".
 
 Now  the  type  locality  of  P.  mahecola  is  mahe  (kerala)  hence  the  name  mahe-cola.
 
 The  type  locality  of  P.  melanostigma  is  also  kerala.  The  type  locality  of  P.  amphibius  is  bombay.
 
 Now  we  come  to  your  part  of  the  question......what  happens  when  we  collect  a  fish  from  middle.  As  per  current  taxonomic  standing,  if  your  fish  has  a  caudal  blotch  (where  ever  collected  from)  it  is  P.  mahecola.  If  your  fishes  are  consistently  deeper  in  body  shape  and  are  from  Kerala  close  to  Wynaad  then  the  species  P.  melanostigma  could  be  revalidated.
 
 Now  the  identity  of  P.  amphibius  is  in  question  as  it  is  known  to  be  a  barb  without  any  body  markings.  This  is  because  the  drawing  of  Valenciennes  and  the  syntypes  in  the  French  museum  are  fish  without  any  markings.  P&K  2005  argue  that  specimens  of  P.  mahecola  and  P.  amphibius  were  collected  during  the  same  time  (early  19th  centuary)  and  one  lot  has  a  spot  and  the  other  lot  does  not.  Therefore  they  conclude  that  P.  amphibius  is  indeed  a  fish  without  caudal  spot.  One  thing  they  did  not  consider  much  is  ill-preserved  specimens  and  fish  in  stress  do  lose  the  spot.
 
 Another  intereting  fact  is  that  there  is  one  more  fish  P.  arenatus  which  does  not  have  a  caudal  spot.  The  identity  of  P.  arenatus  was  not  discussed  by  P&K  2005.
 
 Now  to  sum  up  with  a  few  of  my  contemplations.  
 
 1)  If  you  find  a  barb  near  bombay  without  a  caudal  spot  then  that  is  P.  amphibius.  
 2)  A  deep  barb  from  Kerala  with  caudal  spot  could  be  P.  melanostigma
 
 Unless  the  above  two  species  are  either  validated  or  made  'objective'  synonyms  we  have  to  id  any  fish  with  just  a  caudal  blotch  and  no  other  body  markings  as  P.  mahecola
 
 Hope  I  was  able  to  throw  some  light  into  this  Very Happy  .
 
 Below  are  some  pics  from  my  collection  which  could  indeed  be  these  fishes,  but  needs  further  investigation.                

 Brilliantly  drafted!  Rock On  
 Thanks  Marc.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 I  had  4  of  them  which  we  caught,  very  skittish  &  fast  moving  chaps.
 Andy  also  had  his  opinion  about  mahecolas  &  amphibius  discussion  earlier.
 
                                                 
andyrushworth  wrote  (View  Post):                
the  cyprinid  in  the  new  pic  is  the  one  that  was  known  as  P.  amphibius  but  after  a  new  study  is  now  thought  to  be  the  true  Mahecola   Thumb Up  I've  currantly  got  five  of  them  ,  what  you  should  notice  is  a  dark  blotch  appear  on  the  dorsal  fin  when  the  males  become  excited  !  I  like  this  fish  though  plain  of  colour  it  has  a  certain  charm   Very Happy                
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Marc
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 Thanks  Beta,  Kastor,  Yogaranda
 
 Beta,  Guess  we  all  improve  over  the  years   Smile  
 
 Shankar,  Thats  a  good  example  of  a  stressed  fish  losing  its  blotch
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TheChannaGuy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: Re: ID Barb Reply with quote

 First  of  all,  I  apologize  to  everyone  who  have  pooled  their  knowledge  in  this  interesting  thread.And  I  am  really  sorry  for  being  stupid  on  the  first  day  of  this  year.
 But  I  am  now  seriously  confused  and  plead  you  to  clear  my  doubts  which  i  mention  below:
 Before  reading,  let  me  make  it  very  clear  that  I  am  not  aquainted  personally  with  these  fish  and  am  highly  ignorant  of  scientific  protocol  followed  before  nomenclature.  The  below  doubts  arise  since  most  aquarium  and  aquaculture  websites  including  government  gazetteers  name  the  more  colourful  fish  from  mahe  as  puntius  mahecola  /  assimilis  and  the  bland  fish  from  maharashtra  as  puntius  amphibius.  But  marc  has  shed  light  on  some  recent  advances  in  nomenclature  since  a  paper  published  in  2005.  
 By  what  has  been  revealed  so  far,  I  gather  that  the  fish  in  these  two  pics  have  either  been/would  be  classified  into  the  same  species  (  as  northern  and  southern  population  variants  )  or  into  the  same  species  complex.  If  this  is  true,  what  about  the  obvious  differences,  not  only  in  the  colour  (  wrt.  blotches  and  caudal  linings  )  (  Here,  I  would  also  like  to  point  at  the  difference  between  the  shape  of  the  caudal  blotches.  The  maharashtrian  fish  has  an  oval  blotch  while  the  keralite  fish  has  a  pear  shaped  blotch  )  but  also  evident  in  the  body  form  (  the  one  from  kerala  has  a  deep  oval  body  like  a  tinfoil  barb  while  the  one  from  maharashtra  has  an  elongated  body  like  a  silver  shark  ).  I  find  some  differences  in  the  head  too,  (  the  mahe  barb  seems  to  have  a  rummy  nose  )  but  might  be  an  error  of  perception.
 I  think  that  these  are  totally  different  barbs  and  deserve  their  own  species.  Aren't  fish  analysed  genetically  before  being  classified.  Evolution  can  be  convergent  or  divergent  and  genotypes  are  more  conclusive  than  phenotypes  in  determining  specific  relations.  However  if  the  kerala  variant  in  my  pic  has  already  been  separately  classified  as  Puntius  assimilis,  and  not  as  Puntius  mahecola,  ingore  this  post  as  a  newbie's  folly.


Last edited by TheChannaGuy on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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