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Marc
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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Hi Nikhil,
Am happy you are interested 
It is quite simple. Every ZSI regional centre has an Ichthyology section with a scientist in charge of that section. All you need to do is go meet the scientist hand over your specimens and request him to register it for you. Any fish qualifies to be registered  as ZSIs have collections for public access........
Be sure to count the number of fish (both species and specimens) you give and make sure you get the register number with the details.
The register number will be something like this..........
Register number: ZSI/SRC F8092
Binomial: Puntius filamentosus (Val.)
Family: Cyprinidae
Collector: Nikhil (with initials)
Date of collection: 24.02.2011
Locality: Sita nadi, Karntaka
Altitude: 800 m
Number of examples: 8
The Western Ghats Regional Centre in Calicut would be closer for you I guess. I can help you deposit in Southern Regional Centre in Chennai if Calicut guys dont comply. |
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nikhilsood1
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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Hi Marc,
Thanks a lot for that Info. Ok I am ok with sending the fish over to Chennai if you can get them deposited? Or do I have to come down to get them deposited personally?
In about 2 weeks hopefully I might have about 2-3 varieties I might want to deposit.
Ok now that gets me to my next question. If I need to get them deposited whats the criteria for that? New species etc and who validates what I claim? Or is it just a deposit of fish saying that I collected it and end of story? |
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Marc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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No problem, I will deposit the fish for you. You need not come down....just send the fish (either fixed or alive) to me and I will deposit and send you the Register numbers.
No criteria for depositing. Any fish can be deposited in the ZSI Collections. For Chennai (SRC) it will be validated by Dr. K. Rema Devi. It will take time if its a new species to be described as there is already a pile of new species with her.
If it is a new species we will let you know, and give you the register numbers. You can take it up yourself or send the register number to any of your friends who are working on fish so that they can access your collection and work on it.
If this is not feasible, you will have to wait till the researchers in ZSI take up your fish which will take time. Come what may even 100 years down the line whoever describes the fish, the paper will have your name as the collector. |
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nikhilsood1
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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Thats a great help Marc. I will send down the fish I think need or should be deposited. Will send you some Puntius filamentosus as well. Different catch location. That river looked very dead so I guess could be the last few you might get.
Thanks again for explaining and offering to help. |
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Marc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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| Welcome Nikhil............the P. filamentosus will be a great help. |
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Ashwin
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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I have a question
In case i collect some specimens from a isolated zone, which i feel is a new species and to ascertain its status i deposit it with ZSI. But since there is a backlog of samples and it takes say a year to be ascertained.
In the meantime, if someone else collects the very same specimens from the same area and has it described faster than me. What will be the status of my specimens? do i get any sort of claim on the new species?
This is realistic problem because people who are not equipped with the taxonomic skill set will depend on a third person to study and identify it, at the same time if a taxonomist lays his hands on the species, he will be in position to describe it earlier. |
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Tirtha C
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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| Changed the subject line as it became almost a handbook for fish explorers. |
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joyban
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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I guess if you are interested in Native Fishes please have a reference book, once such book is
The Freshwater Fishes of the Indian Region
K.C. Jayaram, Narendra Pub, 2010, Revised Second Edition, xxxii, 616 p, 39 Col. Plates, 348 b/w plates, ISBN : 81-907952-1-0
Contents: Systematic Index. 1. Introduction: i. Scope and arrangement. ii. Acknowledgements. 2. Fish identification: i. How to use the key. ii. How to collect fish. iii. How to preserve fish. iv. Care of the collection. v. Field notes and labelling. 3. Classification: i. Measurements. ii. Counts. 4. Systematic account. Glossary. Bibliography. Index to scientific names. Index to common English names.
Plus you may subscribe to the ZSI Journals and to the Journals of The Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS).
New Species not mentioned in the book are availabe in the journals.
Aslo here is a list of Fresh Water Fishes Of India :-
http://zsi.gov.in/checklist/Native%20freshwater%20Fishes%20of%20India.pdf
Regards
Sujoy |
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Marc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: One confusion |
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| Ashwin wrote (View Post):
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In the meantime, if someone else collects the very same specimens from the same area and has it described faster than me. What will be the status of my specimens? do i get any sort of claim on the new species?
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You will have no claim over the new species described. 
That is why we (in ZSI,SRC) make it a point to inform the collector it is a new species and if he would like to have his fish back. If the collector feels he can get some other means to get the fish discribed we send his samples back without registering them so that he can send it to some other institution for describing.
If the collector feels he cannot do that but prefers to risk a wait, then we register the specimens and science takes its course and time
| Ashwin wrote (View Post):
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This is realistic problem because people who are not equipped with the taxonomic skill set will depend on a third person to study and identify it, at the same time if a taxonomist lays his hands on the species, he will be in position to describe it earlier.
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Again I would like to say describing a new species is not rocket science and can be done by anybody. It is just the interest to learn. Dr. Rohan Pethiyagoda was a chemical engineer before he became an ichthyologist.
We also have Puntius setnai described by Chhapgar & Sane. Sane was a fish collector just like us.
I sincerely hope some of us would branch into taxonomy as there is so much we can do. There are more undescribed species in the ZSI collections than the entire western ghats 
There are 8000 odd registered collections and equal number of unregistered collection of fishes at ZSI, SRC. There is only one Senior scientist with two junior scientist and two research fellow to go through all this............and collections keep on coming in.
I am willing to help to the best of my capacity anybody interested in IAH to take up a species/group for study. The process of learning may sometime be difficult but it pays in the long run. |
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Ashwin
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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| Thanks Marc for your inputs. . . cleared a lot of doubts |
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Deepak267
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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Very Interesting Thread..
I am really glad to know that we have so many dedicated hobbyist and professional in india.
Deepak |
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joyban
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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Hi Marc,
Could you please elaborate on the Holotype and the Paratype ? and how does one preserve a specimen ?
Regards
Sujoy |
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Marc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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| joyban wrote (View Post):
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Could you please elaborate on the Holotype and the Paratype ? and how does one preserve a specimen ?
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Ok I will explain as simple as possible........like a story
An author collects around 10 specimens and he feels they are a new species. Now he goes about describing the species. He takes the best, most complete, least damaged fish of his 10 specimens for example a P. filamentosus male with beautiful filaments and writes his description. He describes the colour/ shape/ scales/ fin rays/ gill rakers etc.... he even draws the fish (or uses its photograph) in his publication. Now this male P. filamentosus is the HOLOTYPE because the entire description is based on this one fish.
Now in his publication he wants to tell about the sexual dimorphism between the male and female P. filamentosus, so he picks out the best female specimen in his collection and uses this fish just for this part of his description............now this fish is a PARATYPE. Now there may be more than one paratype specimen if the author chooses more specimens to elucidate various characters like juvenile/ breeding pattern etc.
Now the holotype and paratype have to designated by the author in his publication. If he fails to do that we only know that he used 10 specimens to carry out his description and we dont know any holotype or paratype...........so in that case all the ten specimens are called SYNTYPES.
Now we have a problem with early authors like Hamilton and Jerdon who have done extensive work but failed to deposit their collection in a safe place for future generations. Now we dont know what fish they examined but we know from where they got it.........so we go to the same locality and collect fish ressembling their description. Now this fish collected by later authors from the type locality is called TOPOTYPE.
The topotype in the absence of the holotype/ paratype/ syntype can be designated by the later author working on the fish as a NEOTYPE. This neotype will be used for redescribing the fish which was earlier described. Neotypes can also be designated by subsequent authors from a set of syntypes in the absence of the holotype or paratype.
Hope I was able to convey the meaning..................
Now coming to the preservation part there are two ways....one is using formalin (dilute formaldehyde) or Alcohol. Specimens preserved in absolute alcohol can be used for DNA studies.
We will discuss how to preserve using formalin as it is easier to obtain.
Preparation of Formalin solution.
You will need two concentrations 10% and 4% formalin.
The commercially available formalin is 40% formaldehyde. So you dilute it as required.
Once you get your fish try to preserve as fresh as possible. It reduces scale loss and distortion. If you have live fish you can choose to dunk it in alive which is heartless or you can anesthesize the fish using half a spoon clove oil (available for tooth ache in all pharmacy) in one litre of water. This is a heavy dose and the fish will float in coma in seconds which inturn you can preserve.
You will have to first soak it for 48 hours in 10% formalin and then shift to 4% formalin. This is only used for short term preservation. You will have to preserve it in 50-75% alcohol if you want your fish to last many years.
Try to spread out all the fins and dab it with 10% formalin so that they stay open, close the mouth and opercles before you soak it. If you using a jar, preserve the fish head down so that the fins dont get damaged.
Phew..........that was a long one. Hope you guys understood. Please feel free to ask for any clarifications in areas I may have been vague. |
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madhu_ulysses
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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That explains it all Marc. BTW, did you forget the anus injection? We wont let you go lazy. 
In addition to Marc's, try taking pictures of live specimen before preserving them. It would be a better idea if you could take a few pictures and note on fin/scale count. After its dead pin down the fish on a thermocol sheet with fins spread and take clear photographs of the below:
-Dorsal view, lateral view & anterior view
-Clear pictures of snout & mouth parts showing barbels (if any).
-Fin count; Dorsal, Pectoral, Pelvic, Anal and Caudal.
It would also help if you note down the no of branched/unbranched rays in dorsal, pectoral, pelvic and anal fins and no of rays on each lobe of the caudal fin if forked/emarginate. Also note the no of scales on the lateral line, transverse scale count and whether or not the lateral line is complete. In case you are going on multiple trips, you can maintain a log which could come in very handy for later use/reference. |
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Ashwin
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:06 am Post subject: Re: How to describe a new fish? |
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This is what is called good solid information . . . Marc, Madhu and all other contributors great job.
Small query. . . is it mandatory to deposited any specimen (Indian) requiring an ID with ZSI, can anyone register their specimens abroad with other institutes? |
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