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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2
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Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2
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saurabh_m
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Hi!
 I  have  a  great  confusion.  Always  it  is  a  presumption  that  emersed  growth  is  good  because  plants  get  proper  CO2  from  the  atmosphere,  which  means  the  CO2  level  in  atmosphere  is  adequate.  Which  sounds  reasonable  since  all  the  plants,  trees  etc.  are  taking  CO2  from  the  atmosphere  itself.
 Now  it  is  said  that  the  water  column  if  disturbed  tries  to  balance  the  dissolved  gases  with  atmosphere,  which  I  think  is  an  equilibrium  of  the  kind  that  %  of  dissolved  gases  in  water  becomes  same  as  that  of  atmosphere.  This  again  indicates  that  surface  disturbance  should  always  bring  back  the  dissolved  CO2  levels  at  normal  position,  even  if  the  plants  consume  most  of  the  dissolved  CO2,  so  why  is  it  so  that  surface  disturbance  is  always  a  big  no-no  for  planted  tanks.
 I  have  seen  some  tank  shots  of  master  aquascapers  with  too  much  water  movement  on  the  top,  which  again  strengthens  my  point  to  some  extent,  but  experience  shows  something  else,  whats  the  matter  folks,  I'm  too  confused.   Confused
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Severumkid
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Surface  agitation  is  necessary  for  healthier  plant  growth  IMO.
 If  you  supply  ample  Co2  (ready  3-5  bubbles/second)  from  a  steady  source,  then  you  will  not  have  Co2  shortage  in  your  tank.  Where  as  putting  a  power  head  near  the  surface  gives  me  strikingly  lush  plants.  I  also  10  a  15%  water  change  every  day  and  60%  water  change  every  10  days  or  so.
 
 Nice  point  Saurabh,  but  your  question  leads  to  another  question.  What  will  happen  if  we  inject  air  in  the  water  column?  As  air  is  almost  80%  Co2,  how  will  the  plants  react?  What  do  you  guys  think?
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sudheerj
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 HI  Surabh  &  Dev,
                                                    I  think  the  issue  is  that  the  Saurabh  is  comparing  normal  condition  with  the  CO2  supplied  tank.  In  normal  case  when  there  is  no  artificial  CO2  supply  to  the  water,  then  the  surface  mixing  should  help  in  keeping  the  ratio  of  atmospheric  Co2  in  water  column(  or  at  least  trying  for  that  equilibrium).  
 
 But  when  we  are  supplying  CO2  as  pure  CO2  from  bottom  or  near  bottom  of  the  tank  there  tend  to  be  a  high  concentration  of  CO2  in  water  which  is  good  for  optimal  growth  of  many  plants.  This  spreads  across  tank  by  diffusion/  internal  currents  caused  by  movements  of  fish  etc.
 
   If  we  agitate  then  the  higher  amount  of  CO2  dissolved  in  water  tend  to  escape  to  atmosphere  to  maintain  the  equilibrium.  So  it  think  this  is  the  funda  of  no  surface  agitation  in  case  of  planted  tank  when  there  is  a  CO2  supply  to  the  tank.
 
 with  best  regards,
 Sudheer
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saikumar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
Severumkid  wrote  (View  Post):                
As  air  is  almost  80%  Co2,  how  will  the  plants  react?  What  do  you  guys  think?                

 
 Which  planet  do  you  live  in???  Surprised
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crazzyarchh
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Severumkid...
   air  does  not  have  80%  co2....if  i  remember  it  rite  it  has  about  70%  nitrogen  20%  o2  and   a  very  low  %  of  co2....
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Tirtha C
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
Severumkid  wrote  (View  Post):                
Surface  agitation  is  necessary  for  healthier  plant  growth  IMO.
                 

 
   Bounce   Unsure
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saurabh_m
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
sudheerj  wrote  (View  Post):                
HI  Surabh  &  Dev,
                                                    I  think  the  issue  is  that  the  Saurabh  is  comparing  normal  condition  with  the  CO2  supplied  tank.  In  normal  case  when  there  is  no  artificial  CO2  supply  to  the  water,  then  the  surface  mixing  should  help  in  keeping  the  ratio  of  atmospheric  Co2  in  water  column(  or  at  least  trying  for  that  equilibrium).  
 
 But  when  we  are  supplying  CO2  as  pure  CO2  from  bottom  or  near  bottom  of  the  tank  there  tend  to  be  a  high  concentration  of  CO2  in  water  which  is  good  for  optimal  growth  of  many  plants.  This  spreads  across  tank  by  diffusion/  internal  currents  caused  by  movements  of  fish  etc.
 
   If  we  agitate  then  the  higher  amount  of  CO2  dissolved  in  water  tend  to  escape  to  atmosphere  to  maintain  the  equilibrium.  So  it  think  this  is  the  funda  of  no  surface  agitation  in  case  of  planted  tank  when  there  is  a  CO2  supply  to  the  tank.
 
 with  best  regards,
 Sudheer                

 
 Correct,  but  then  why  is  the  emmersed  growth  better.
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Tirtha C
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
saurabh_m  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
sudheerj  wrote  (View  Post):                
HI  Surabh  &  Dev,
                                                    I  think  the  issue  is  that  the  Saurabh  is  comparing  normal  condition  with  the  CO2  supplied  tank.  In  normal  case  when  there  is  no  artificial  CO2  supply  to  the  water,  then  the  surface  mixing  should  help  in  keeping  the  ratio  of  atmospheric  Co2  in  water  column(  or  at  least  trying  for  that  equilibrium).  
 
 But  when  we  are  supplying  CO2  as  pure  CO2  from  bottom  or  near  bottom  of  the  tank  there  tend  to  be  a  high  concentration  of  CO2  in  water  which  is  good  for  optimal  growth  of  many  plants.  This  spreads  across  tank  by  diffusion/  internal  currents  caused  by  movements  of  fish  etc.
 
   If  we  agitate  then  the  higher  amount  of  CO2  dissolved  in  water  tend  to  escape  to  atmosphere  to  maintain  the  equilibrium.  So  it  think  this  is  the  funda  of  no  surface  agitation  in  case  of  planted  tank  when  there  is  a  CO2  supply  to  the  tank.
 
 with  best  regards,
 Sudheer                

 
 Correct,  but  then  why  is  the  emmersed  growth  better.                

 
 I  think  you  are  asking  2  different  questions  together.
 
 1.  Why  we  don't  want  surface  agitation  in  planted  tank?
 
 2.  Why  health  of  emmersed  grown  plants  are  better?
 
 right?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 saurabh..
   the  surface  area  of  the  aquarium  which  comes  in  contact  with  the  air  is  very  less  as  compared  to  natural  water  bodies,  also  these  water  bodies  have  turbulence  which  might  help  in  exchange  of  gases.
 other  factors  like  wind  might  also  help.....where  as  in  the  aquarium  such  exchange  may  not  be  possible  due  to  smaller  area,  low  movement  of  water  and  absence  of  wind.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Saurabh,  the  CO2  ppm  in  water  at  equilibrium  with  air  is  1-2  ppm.  Insufficient  for  plants.
 Surface  agitation  does  increase  CO2  back  to  the  1-2  ppm  dissolved  levels  when  plants  stop  using  CO2  at  night  in  a  non  CO2  injected  tank.
 
 Forgive  Deb,  he  mentioned  80%  CO2  levels  in  the  earth's  atmosphere  just  after  he  pulled  his  head  out  off  a  coke  bottle.
 The  same  goes  for  his  surface  agitation  is  good  bit,  except  that  it  does  help  increasing  oxygen  levels  at  night  when  plants  respire,
 you'll  have  to  stop  the  agitation  when  CO2  injection  starts  again  in  the  morning.
 Not  necessary  if  you  have  a  clean  filter  +  aquarium  +  healthy  growth  of  plants.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
Tirtha  C  wrote  (View  Post):                
I  think  you  are  asking  2  different  questions  together.
 
 1.  Why  we  don't  want  surface  agitation  in  planted  tank?
 
 2.  Why  health  of  emmersed  grown  plants  are  better?
 
 right?                

 
 But  the  two  questions  are  related  aren't  they.
 
 Madan  Sir,
 Could  you  elaborate  this  a  bit  more,  please.  Or  a  link,  maybe.....
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Tirtha C
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

                                                   
saurabh_m  wrote  (View  Post):                
                                                 
Tirtha  C  wrote  (View  Post):                

 
 I  think  you  are  asking  2  different  questions  together.
 
 1.  Why  we  don't  want  surface  agitation  in  planted  tank?
 
 2.  Why  health  of  emmersed  grown  plants  are  better?
 
 right?                

 
 But  the  two  questions  are  related  aren't  they.
                 

 
 No...  they  are  different.
 
 Just  to  add  what  MAdan  Sir  has  said  already.  Plants  need  30ppm  CO2  (Hope  I  remember  this  correctly)  to  grow  under  water  healthy.  So  if  we  don't  push  CO2  then  there  will  be  very  less  CO2  which  is  dissolving  from  air.  Now  when  you  are  pushing  CO2,  that  means  you  are  increasing  the  level  of  CO2  in  water  than  the  air.  
 
 This  time,  if  we  start  surface  agitation,  then  this  extra  CO2  will  start  going  out  of  water  and  there  will  be  CO2  fluctuations.  And  we  all  know  why  we  need  a  steady  CO2  level  in  a  planted  tank.  :)
 
 But  there  is  another  important  factor  we  should  keep  in  our  mind.  To  keep  a  good  health  of  your  aquarium,  you  need  a  good  amount  of  dissolve  O2  in  tank  water.  If  you  have  big  fishes,  too  many  fishes,  you  will  see  sometimes  they  are  gasping  even  when  CO2  is  not  too  much.  This  is  because  of  low  O2  in  water.
 
 Sometimes  we  need  more  than  30ppm  CO2  in  tank.  At  the  same  time  if  you  need  good  O2  also,  install  another  diffuser  connected  to  an  airpump.  This  will  keep  adding  O2  to  tank  water  without  agitating  the  surface.
 
 In  planted  tank  you  need  a  mild  flow  all  over  the  tank  not  a  turbulence.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Hi  Saurabh,
 
 -----Correct,  but  then  why  is  the  emmersed  growth  better.----------------
 
 
 Do  you  think  all  plants  are  grown  better  as  emmersed  ?  It  may  be  some  plants  which  do  better  in  emmersed  conditions,  it  may  be  a  natural  adaptation  of  plants  to  the  seasonally  varying  levels  of  water  in  nature  where   plants  gets  partly  exposed  to  air  at  least  in  few  months  during  semi/  non  rainy  seasons.
 
 
 As  a  mater  of  fact  below  is  the  composition  of  air
 
 Dry  air  contains  roughly  (by  volume)  78.09%  nitrogen,  20.95%  oxygen,  0.93%  argon,  0.039%  carbon  dioxide,  and  small  amounts  of  other  gases.  Air  also  contains  a  variable  amount  of  water  vapor,  on  average  around  1%
 
 with  best  regards,
 Sudheer
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Linelogic
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Saurabh,
      In  water  the  diffusion  of  gases  is  very  slow  and  minimal  .  So  even  if  the  water  surface  that  is  exposed  to  the  atmosphere  get's  enough  CO2  contact  (  2-3%  ),  the  amount  that  get's  dissolved  and  diffused  into  the  water  layers  below  the  surface  is  very  minimal.  Hence  we  tend  to  inject  CO2  into  water,  to  keep  the  CO2  at  all  levels  of  water  high.
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Madan
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Location: Bengaluru, India

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Surface Disturbance and Dissolved CO2 Reply with quote

 Saurabh  you  want  a  link  for  what  ?  Dissolved  CO2  levels  in  water  at  equilibrium  ?
 Just  google  !
 
 Or  for  Deb  and  the  coke  bottle   ?  Sorry,  I  just  made  that  up  !  Chuckle
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