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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank?
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MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank?
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polya
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:54 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 i  don't  think  36W  will  be  enough.  i  have  read  a  lot  of  posts  where  people  have  failed  to  grow  it  with  2  x  36W  PLL  on  the  same  tank  size.  thats  why  a  bit  worried.  
 
 never  tried  glossostigma  before
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polya
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:57 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 even  in  the  link  that  you  gave,  the  guy  is  using  like  4+  WPG
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saikumar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

                                                   
polya  wrote  (View  Post):                
i  don't  think  36W  will  be  enough.  i  have  read  a  lot  of  posts  where  people  have  failed  to  grow  it  with  2  x  36W  PLL  on  the  same  tank  size.  thats  why  a  bit  worried.  
 
 never  tried  glossostigma  before                

 
 Hey  mate!
 
 >Light  might  not  be  the  problem  always,  indirectly  even  if  the  light  is  low  and  every  other  parameter  correct  and  fine  you  should  have  your  plants  growing  a  little  slowly  or  little  leggy,  but  not  disaster  for  sure
 
 >Still  your  tank  is  1.5ft  tall,  so  you  might  want  to  get  the  PLL  close  to  water  and  also  2X36  for  better  spreadEDIT
 Sorry  misread  your  tank  height.  Even  I  feel  36W  is  a  decent  option  over  the  1ft  width,  you  might  look  into  3T5s  for  better  spread  in  same  power  range.
 
 Good  luck  Thumb Up


Last edited by saikumar on Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scorpio
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 A  27  watt  CFL  or  36  watt  PLL  will  be  fine.  If  you  are  using  a  MH  in  16-17  gallon  tank,  it  is  waste  of  money  and  electricity.  With  MH,  you  also  need  to  cool  water  round  the  year  in  Mumbai.  You  can't  grow  glosso  in  a  high  temperature  tank  successfully.  So  CFL  or  PLL  will  be  best  option  for  you  as  Tirtha  also  suggest.
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Hamza
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 If  you  consider  that  ripple  effect,  dont  be  fooled  by  those  show  setups.  They  use  a  studio  setup(and  not  the  lights  they  have  used  to  grow  those  plants),  with  loads  of  light  from  every  single  direction  to  create  all  such  crisp  detailing.
 
 They  use  1000s  of  watts  at  a  burst  for  that.  Check  these  strobe  setups  below.  
 photography  setup  1
 photography  setup  2
 photography  setup  3
 
 So  you  cant  expect  that  from  just  a  single  MH.  Apart  from  its  penetration  power  and  other  goodies,  I  feel  MH  setups  are  quite  irritating  to  the  viewer  in  front  of  the  tank.  Lots  of  light  spills  out  and  distracts  the  attention  and  not  just  that,  but  theres  power  wastage  too.  You  have  to  carefully  device  a  way  to  utilize  maximum  light  out  of  an  MH,  either  by  adjusting  light  height,  reflectors,  etc.  And  the  other  concern  is  high  temperature.  To  cope  with  it  effectively  many  people  simply  resort  to  using  chillers,  which  might  again  go  way  out  of  your  budget.  A  lot  of  fans  to  cool  down  in  such  a  small  tank  isnt  a  good  choice  either,  you'll  end  up  with  loads  of  water  evaporation,  a  lot  more  than  you  can  imagine.
 
 A  better  option  is  to  go  for  good  quality  fluorescents  as  others  suggest  here.  But  how  much?  
 
 If  I  were  you,  I  would  have  first  observed  all  good  scapes,  how  much  of  light  they  use  and  how  do  they  manage  it  all.  You  have  resources  like  forums,  previous  competition  entries  with  detailed  spec  sheets  to  look  at.
 
 What  I  commonly  see  is,  people  opt  for  60-100w  of  light  for  tank  your  size.  2-3wpg  isnt  enough  for  tanks  less  than  30g  volume(IMO).  Go  with  a  multiple  lights  instead  of  just  a  single  bright  unit.  What  it  does  is  promote  even  growth  throughout  the  tank,  else,  you  might  find  some  tight  and  compact  growth  right  under  the  light  and  leggy,  thin  growth  a  bit  away  from  it.  So  its  better  to  have  4-5  2ft  T5s,  instead  of  a  single  55w  PLL.  Or  maybe  2x36w  PLL  are  even  better  with  proper  reflectors.
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polya
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 @  Hamza  
 
 by  ripple  effect,  umm,  i  really  cannot  explain  it.  the  shadows  cast  on  the  insides  of  the  tank  by  moving  water  on  the  surface.  like  in  the  video  -
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9o7HWtUMo
 
 anyways,  i  thought  about  your  replies  a  lot  and  i  decide  to  go  for  PLLs  Smile  much  cheaper  and  saves  a  lot  of  power  when  compared  to  MH.  
 
 about  the  temperature,  whats  the  max  temperature  in  which  i  can  grow  glossostigma.  ?
 
 i  have  never  managed  to  cool  my  tank  anything  below  30-29  degrees.  not  even  with  2  12  cm  cooling  fans  Sad


Last edited by polya on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 HELLO  I  HAVE  FAILED  IN  MY  ATTEMPT  TO  GROW  GLOSSO  WITH  2  X  36W  PLL  WITH  ALMOST  THE  SAME  TANK  DIMENSIONS.  SO  NOW  I  HAVE  STARTED  EXPERIMENTING  WITH  I  70WATT  MH  AND  TWO  T5  24W  TUBES.INITIAL  RESULTS  ARE  ENCOURAGING  BUT  I  STILL  NEED  TIME  TO  SAY  FOE  SURE
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polya
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 @  sudhir
 
 can  you  please  post  pics  of  your  tank?  i  really  want  to  see  them.  or  as  i  am  in  mumbai,  you  can  invite  me  to  your  place  Razz
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Hamza
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 Glosso  is  doing  fine  with  me  till  28ºC,  dont  know  what  happens  beyond  it.  This  is  my  first  experience  with  it.
 
 I  had  a  tough  time  initially.  My  tank  wasnt  cycled(new  setup  with  new  substrate,  filtermedia  and  everything)  and  most  of  glosso  was  in  bad  shape  due  to  delayed  planting,  first  it  took  a  while  to  settle,  when  it  did,  it  was  growing  vertically  upwards  even  with  decent  lighting.  I  kept  on  pruning  it  for  nearly  a  month,  then  I  think  the  tank  got  established  and  glosso  started  horizontal  runners  and  within  15  days(after  that)  it  almost  filled  the  patch  completely.  Now  I  have  to  worry  about  keeping  it  from  running  everywhere.
 
 I  wonder  why  you  arent  able  to  get  the  temperature  down  with  2  big  fans?
 Where  do  you  place  light  ballasts?  Inside  or  out?
 Do  you  have  any  gap  between  hood  and  the  tank?
 How  do  you  direct  airflow  inside?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 @  hamza
 
 place  the  fans  facing  directly  to  the  water.  lights  used  are  3  x  T5HOs,  placed  5  inches  away  from  the  surface.  
 
 the  ballasts  are  out  of  the  tank.  the  water  does  not  cool  as  temps  in  mumbai  exceed  35  degrees  most  of  the  times.  Sad  with  high  humidity.
 
 i  think  humidity  is  the  reason  tanks  cannot  be  cooled  a  lot  in  mumbai.  also,  fans  result  in  just  2-3  degrees  drop  and  just  a  lot  of  evaporation.  
 
 so  you  mean  non  cycled  tanks  affect  the  plants  too?  that  will  be  my  case  too.
 
 also  should  i  go  for  a  2213  or  2215  for  filter?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 From  your  old  setup  pictures  I  see  that,  theres  no  gap  between  hood  and  tank,  though  there  a  huge  gap  between  lights  and  surface,  thats  a  very  ineffective  design.  You  should  opt  for  a  slim  hood  with  good  reflectors(yes  they  are  very  important,  else  most  of  light  goes  wasted)  and  the  hood  should  be  suspended  over  the  tank  with  some  gap(~4"  for  Fluorescents)  within,  it  helps  in  flow  of  air  at  the  surface,  reduces  humidity  and  heat  from  lights.
 
 Even  Hyd  temperatures  are  similarly  harsh  and  humid,  last  year  I  managed  to  reduce  to  sub  30s  from  38º  room  temperature,  with  just  a  single  fan(running  24x7)  in  extreme  conditions.  I  place  fan  perpendicular  to  water  surface  or  tilted  around  60ºangle.  Around  10l  water  evaporates  each  day  in  a  100l  tank.
 
 Yes  cycling  helps  a  lot  in  growth  of  plants,  thats  why  you  see  a  lot  of  commercial  products  that  establish  bacteria  in  filter  within  a  couple  of  days.
 
 After  cycling,  tank  becomes  stable.  A  planted  tank  needs  to  be  balanced  as  soon  as  possible  to  progress  well,  a  sudden  increase  or  decrease  in  nutrient  level  from  water  column  results  in  algae,  that  hinders  growth  while  establishing  itself  on  plants.  Furthermore  constant  instability  in  parameters  stresses  plants  too  while  promoting  more  and  more  algae  and  thats  more  likely  to  happen  in  tanks  not  cycled  or  very  less  filtration.  So  when  you  are  starting  up  a  new  tank,  do  not  clean  or  remove  old  filter  media,  use  a  bit  of  older  substrate  as  well.
 
 2213  should  be  enough,  if  you  have  a  2215  already,  you  may  utilize  it  as  well.
 
 Whenever  you  are  setting  a  new  tank,  strive  for  a  few  things...
 -Use  a  lot  of  plants  from  day-one  itself.
 -Have  a  matured  filter  or  use  some  additives  that  help  in  establishing  the  tank  faster.
 -do  not  add  fishes  for  atleast  2  weeks  and  provide  ample  of  CO2  supply.  It  helps  in  establishing  emersed-grown  plants  to  underwater  conditions  faster.  After  2-3  weeks  you  can  maintain  CO2  at  30ppm  for  adding  algae  easters.
 -less  light  hours;  start  from  4-5  hours/day,  increase  to  6  the  third  week,  and  later  increase  it  gradually  an  hour  by  hour,  every  week  after  a  month.  (This  is  for  high-lit  tank)
 -getting  water  tested;  atleast  for  N,P  and  FE  is  essential  if  not  all.  Try  and  maintain  optimum  levels  of  these  and  you'll  have  an  algae  free  tank.(if  you  like  dry  doing  method)
 
 This  is  from  my  own  experience  and  ofcourse  observing  how  good  scapes  progress.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 thanks  a  lot  Hamza.  will  remember  those  points.  
 
 about  the  light  fixtures,  yes  i  am  looking  for  those  pre  made  light  fixtures  like  boyu  or  something.  but  i  am  not  able  to  find  anything  that  has  2  x  36  W  plls  in  it.  may  be  i  will  DIY  it.  
 
 for  ventilation,  i  keep  two  fans  and  keep  the  hood  open  in  the  summers.   and  i  know  its  very  impractical  design  for  cooling.  but  my  friend  has  a  same  tank  fully  open  with  just  the  light  hanging  with  a  reflector.  he  also  has  cooling  issues
 
 
 about  the  algae,  in  the  last  one  year,  i  have  had  so  many  algae  problems.  it  was  a  nightmare.  but  now  i  am  understanding  how  to  kick  them  out.  but,  in  my  opinion,  brown  algae  is  the  worst.  Sad  
 
 could  never  defeat  brown  algae.  NEVER.  that  thing  destroys  all  my  plants  when  the  setup  is  new.  when  i  see  you  people  on  IAH,  you  never  seem  to  have  that  brown  Algae  stage.  and  i  could  never  get  a  proper  answer  on  how  to  how  to  avoid  (i  know  we  cannot  avoid  it  completely)  or  minimize  brown  algae.  
 
 that  thing  seriously  is  a  nightmare  for  me.  it  comes  in  at  around  30  days  and  goes  away  after  a  month  or  so  after  setting  a  new  tank..  but  in  that  one  month,  it  totally  destroys  all  my  plants.  and  i  tried  every  method  on  net.  like  increase  light  intensity,  increase  CO2,  add  otos  (a  lot  of  them).  still  no  success
 
 any  tips  here?
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Hamza
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 BTW,  what  kind  of  thermometer  do  you  use?  My  glass  thermometer  shows  2-3  degrees  over  the  right  reading.  It  was  showing  28º  even  water  was  quite  cool,  I  compared  the  same  with  a  digital  thermometer  and  its  showing  25º.  Try  this,  if  you  already  have,  then  you  are  living  at  a  hotter  plan  than  I  do.
 
 And  can  you  show  me  the  brown  algae  you  are  talking  about?  Is  it  BBA  or  diatoms?  Have  you  got  any  close-uppictures  of  it?
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polya
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 i  have  a  lab  grade  mercury  thermometer.  always  thought  digital  ones  are  inaccurate  Razz  will  get  a  digital  one  soon.
 
 and  i  am  talking  about  diatoms.  i  fought  off  BBA  attack.  not  very  difficult  to  reduce  it  as  people  say.
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Hamza
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: Re: MH lighting for a 60cm glosso tank? Reply with quote

 First  let  me  show  you  a  sequence  of  images....
 
 
 
 Now  I'll  say  what  went  wrong  and  how  I  corrected  it.
 I  was  dosing  ardently  as  per  EI  method  from  the  second  day...
 1/3rd  tsp  KNO3
 a  small  pinch  ot  KH2PO4(around  1/16tsp)
 and  CSM-B(same  as  phosphates)
 
 All  without  testkits.  Every  type  of  algae  established  in  the  tank.  I  used  to  manually  remove  a  handful  of  algae  every  single  day,  and  that  helped  very  little.
 
 The  I  tried  reducing  dosage  totally  and  increasing  CO2.  That  dint  helped  at  all.  Very  frequent  water  changes,  manual  removal,  etc  all  was  going  in  vain....Then  it  clicked  me  that  I  should  get  a  few  major  water  parameters  tested.
 
 A  friend  of  mine  has  Nitrate  test  kits.  He  tested  the  water  and  found  that  I  had  <1ppm  of  No3.  It  should  be  ideally  within  10-20ppm)  range  for  a  heavily  planted  tank.
 
 and  like  wise  the  water  had  nearly  2ppm  of  PO4(should  be  <1ppm).
 
 So  heres  the  root  of  all  causes...
 Excess  of  phosphates.  Some  algae  tend  to  flourish  with  deficiency  in  nitrates(diatoms  specifically)  on  the  other  hand.  And  from  lack  of  dosing  N(which  is  needed  in  bulk)  the  plants  will  suffering  badly.  When  plants  are  stressed  out  for  some  reason(that  maybe  lack/excess  of  nutrient)  they  cease  growth  or  show  stunted  growth  and  this  is  a  big  opportunity  for  algae.  
 
 Likewise,  some  other  algaes  come  with  excess  of  other  nutrients,  even  nitrogen.  So  you  have  to  work  accordingly.
 
 After  this...I  increased  nitrates(KNO3)  to  1tsp  for  my  tank,  yes  1tsp  every  other  day.
 completely  stopped  phosphates(KH2PO4)  for  a  while
 
 and  you  can  see  the  transformation  that  took  place  in  around  15days  after  that.
 
 Moral  -  Completely  ceasing  the  nutrient  supply  wont  solve  any  algae  issues,  you  need  to  find  the  root  cause  for  it,  what  you  are  dosing  in  excess,  whats  falling  short  in  supply,  etc.  and  then  work  accordingly.  


Last edited by Hamza on Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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