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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Camera phones and P&S
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Camera phones and P&S
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Arnab
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Nayak.
 
 The  sharp  pictures  are  coincidences   Smile  The  few  times  when  hand,  heart,  fish  were  still  for  1/5th  of  a  sec.  The  IS  and  F2.7  definitely  helps.  My  old  tank  had  35W  of  light.  I  have  made  a  new  one  with  72W.  That  should  give  some  advantage.  No  pictures  as  I  have  not  introduced  any  fauna  yet.
 
 Your  fourpod  idea  is  fine  for  FTS.  For  fish  which  are  usually  on  the  move,  handheld  is  the  only  option.  Some  advantage  may  be  gained   by  using  a  makeshift  string  monopod.  Check  this  for  details:  http://www.instructables.com/id/String-Tripod/
 
 I  have  been  thinking  of  using  a  similar  contraption  but  did  not  get  around  to  making  it.   
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

                                                   
Arnab  wrote  (View  Post):                

 The  sharp  pictures  are  coincidences   Smile  The  few  times  when  hand,  heart,  fish  were  still  for  1/5th  of  a  sec.  The  IS  and  F2.7  definitely  helps.                  

 
 That's  a  pretty  rare  coincidence  Arnab.   There  is  another  factor  that  needs  to  be  taken  into  account  for  slow  exposures  with  wide  apertures.   A  slow  exposure  with  a  small  aperture  is  comparably  much  stable  than  one  with  a  wide  open  aperture.   For  eg.,  we  could  probably  get  decent  sharpness  with  a  shutter  speed  of  1/20  for  f/11  when  compared  to  the  same  shutter  speed  with  say  f/2.7.   We  all  know  what  it  means  in  terms  of  sharpness  when  the  fish  gets  displaced  by  just  1  mm  between  the  start  and  the  end  of  the  exposure.
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Arnab
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Madhu.
 
 It  is  true  that  a  small  aperture  will  increase  the  DOF.  However,  assuming  that  correct  exposure  is  attained  at  f2.7  and  1/5;  decreasing  the  aperture(increasing  the  f  number)  to  say  f8  will  mean  that  the  shutter  speed  will  have  to  be  reduced  further  to  maintain  the  same  exposure  and  will  tend  towards  the  1  sec  mark.  The  chances  of  movement(subject,  camera  etc)  will  increase  thus  taking  away  the  extra  DOF  advantage.   
 
 You  cannot  obtain  the  same  exposure  by  changing  the  aperture  and  maintaining  the  same  shutter  speed  under  a  given  light  condition  as  stated  in  your  example.  Shutter  speed  and  aperture  are  inversely  proportionate  and  need  to  be  adjusted  accordingly  in  order  to  maintain  a  particular  exposure.
 
 1/20  and  f11,  does  not  represent  the  same  exposure/light  condition  of  1/20  and  f2.7.  The  example's  1/20  and  f11  indicates  decent  light  conditions(assuming  ISO  100)  and  unless  I  am  not  looking  for  very  high  DOF  I  will  not  risk  a  handheld  shot  at  1/20  when  the  same  exposure  will  be  attained  with  1/60  and  f5.6  or  1/125  and  f4.  
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Arnab,
 You  probably  misinterpreted  me  there.   It  was  more  about  managing  stability  than  exposure.     Just  wanted  to  make  a  point  that  with  a  wide  open  aperture  ie.,  smaller  f  number  for  any  given  shutter  speed  the  stability  goes  down  when  compared  to  a  smaller  aperture.   It  was  just  that  I  was  wondering  about  how  a  fish  close  up  was  possible  with  such  a  slow  shutter  speed  that  too  with  such  a  small  f  number  because  with  fish  macros  we  focus  more  on  "details"  or  in  other  words  sharpness  than  anything  else.
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Arnab
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Madhu
 
 I  understood  your  point  of  sharpness  related  to  the  aperture  value.  Small  app  =  high  DOF  =  sharp  image.  But  one  cannot  depend  on  the  f  value  alone  for  a  clear  and  detailed  picture.  
 
 Exposure  =  f(shutter  speed,  aperture,  sensitivity  of  sensor).  As  the  parameters  are  interdependent,  changing  one  and  leaving  the  others  constant  will  result  in  a  different  exposure  value.
 
 If  the  exposure  is  not  accurate  details  will  be  lost  anyway  due  to  either  over  or  under  exposure.  I  don't  think  that  you  can  have  a  badly  exposed  and  highly  detailed  picture.
 
 In  my  opinion,  exposure  should  be  spot  on  and  has  to  be  given  top  priority.  The  shutter  speed  and  aperture  can  be  juggled  while  retaining  the  same  exposure  value  based  on  the  requirements.  
 Eg:  a)  Moving  subject  =  high  shutter  speed  and  aperture  adjusted  accordingly.  
 b)  Require  high  DOF  =  small  aperture  and  shutter  speed  adjusted  accordingly.
 
 It  is  like  boiling  an  egg.  Assume  that  an  egg  can  be  properly  boiled  on  high  flame  for  3  mins.  The  same  can  be  achieved  on  medium  flame  for  5  or  on  low  flame  for  10.  What  happens  when  you  cook  a  similar  egg  on  low  flame  for  3  mins?
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Arnab,
 You  again  got  me  wrong.   I  wasn't  talking  about  DoF  or  even  exposure  in  any  of  my  replies  rather  for  the  below
 
 
                                                 
Arnab  wrote  (View  Post):                

 The  sharp  pictures  are  coincidences   Smile  The  few  times  when  hand,  heart,  fish  were  still  for  1/5th  of  a  sec.  The  IS  and  F2.7  definitely  helps.                

 
 I  wouldn't  be  talking  about  photography  without  getting  how  aperture  and  shutter  speed  are  related.   Just  wanted  to  make  one  point  that  stability  becomes  tricky  with  wider  aperture  for  a  given  shutter  speed.   For  eg,  with  a  hand  held  cam  I  can  get  a  decent  picture  of  say  a  flower  with  a  shutter  speed  of  1/30  S  with  f8  or  f11  and  get  a  comparatively  softer  subject  with  the  same  shutter  speed  of  1/30  with  a  wider  aperture  of  say  2.7  and  obviously  it  gets  more  tricky  for  a  fish.   That  was  what  it  was  all  about.   Smile
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Madan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Guys  I  would  like  you  all  to  get  hold  of  a  f/2.8  dslr  lens,  open  out  both  the  end  covers  and  move  the  aperture  lever  to  max  open  (largest  aperture)
 then  look  through  the  lens.  The  opening  of  the  diaphragm  you'll  see  will  be  much  larger  than  your  P&S  lens  dia  +  surrounding  plastic/metal  !
 
 When  you  say  an  aperture  of  2.8  with  a  P&S  it  is  actually  f/16  or  smaller  in  dslr  terms,  and  your  pictures  will  remain  sharp.
 I  cannot  find  the  link  about  this,  but  try  and  google.
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Arnab
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Madan>
 
 I  checked  with  a  50mm  f1.8  lens.  f2.8  on  the  50mm  is  much  smaller  than  the  lens  diameter  of  the  S3  lens.  I  need  to  take  a  look  at  the  S3's  diaphragm  when  I  set  to  f2.7.   I  do  not  have  the  camera  with  me  right  now.  The  S3  may  be  built  differently  from  other  smaller  P&S.
 
 Sure  the  DOF  provided  by  the  S3  at  f2.7  and  the  50  mm  at  f2.8  will  vary  as  the  S3's  sensor  is  way  smaller  than  a  35mm  film.  However  will  it  be  as  small  as  f16  with  the  50mm?  Most  of  the  pictures  I  have  posted  in  this  thread  were  taken  at  f2.7.  If  that  was  f16  equivalent,  will  I  get  the  kind  of  shallow  DOF  seen  in  the  pictures?  
 
 I  found  a  few  discussions  regarding  the  same  but  no  articles  as  of  now.  Will  keep  looking.
 
 It  might  be  interesting  to  shoot  the  same  scene  with  a  SLR  and  different  P&S  to  compare  the  DOF  effect.  
 
 Madhu>  I  think  I  get  what  you  meant.  We  can  always  continue  at  the  next  IAH  meeting   Smile  
 
 Nayak>  Sorry  for  sort  of  hijacking  your  thread.  Over  to  you.   Thumb Up  
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

                                                   
Arnab  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Nayak>  Sorry  for  sort  of  hijacking  your  thread.  Over  to  you.   Thumb Up  
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.                

 Arnab,  How  did  I  miss  this?
 Sorry  for  what?  This  is  our  thread,  not  mine  alone.  And  Photography  is  such  a  vast  subject  that  to  really  understand  it  and  put  it  to  practice,  combined  inputs  by  all  of  us  is  needed.
 
 The  basic  intention  of  this  thread  is  the  same  as  posted  by  me  earlier,
 
                                                 
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                
Hi,
 Aim:  To  capture  pictures  which  will  do  justice  to  our  fishkeeping  skills  as  well  as  display  the  beauty  of  the  fishes  and  aquatic  plants  with  minimal  distortion.
 [Regards,                

 
 Regards,
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Arnab
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Nayak>  You  are  right  about  this  being  our  thread.  The  discussion  with  Madhu  went  into  a  branch  that  might  not  have  interest  all.  Hence  the  apology.  I  would  also  like  other  members  to  pitch  into  such  discussions  as  only  then  do  we  add  value.  
 
 To  continue  on  getting  better  pictures:
 I  have  always  felt  the  need  of  strong  lighting  from  the  top.  I  feel  that  this  renders  the  true  colors  of  the  fish.  Correct  me  if  I  am  wrong.  This  idea  seems  to  be  validated  by  the  pictures  taken  with  a  external  flash  firing  from  the  top  of  the  tank.  How  do  we  do  that  using  a  P&S?  I  think  there  may  be  flashes  that  get  triggered  by  the  light  of  the  on-camera  flash.  
 
 I  request  the  members  who  have  used  such  a  setup  to  try  and  throw  ideas  of  better  top  lighting  that  can  be  implemented  for  a  P&S.  Any  interesting  experiments  like  the  fourpod?  Examples  will  keep  the  thread  colorful   Smile  
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Hi  Arnab,
 
 Do  not  feel  that  the  discussions  have  no  interest  at  all.  
 
 Many  would  like  to  pitch  into  the  discussions  but  someone  like  me  who  has  only  limited  knowledge  about  photography  would  only  learn  from  the  discussions  as  a  spectator.  Discussions  on  the  forums  are  key  to  adding  to  the  knowledge  base  for  beginners  in  that  particular  field  like  me.  I  had  no  idea  about  f  number,  shutter  speed  and  aperture  and  words  alike.  But  yours  and  other  photo  gurus  discussions  have  helped  a  lot.
 
 As  for  external  flash,  even  I  would  like  to  know  more  about  using  them  with  P&S.
 
 Keep  the  discussions  flowing.
 
 @Nayak:  I  tired  your  fourpod  idea   Smile  but  does  not  seem  to  work  with  my  cam.  The  shaky  hand  icon  (Indicates  stability  I  am  guessing)  never  goes  away.  My  cam  does  have  a  slot  for  attaching  tripod.  Do  you  have  any  other  ideas??
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Arnab
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Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 141
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Camera phones and P&S Reply with quote

 Ranjit
 
 The  "shaky  hand"  icon  will  remain  if  the  lighting  is  below  a  certain  level/considered  poor  by  the  camera.  Placing  the  camera  on  a  stable  platform  and  firing  the  shutter  using  the  timer  ensures  that  the  camera  does  not  move.  However  if  your  subject  is  moving,  the   picture  will  be  blurry.  Shut  off  filters  to  ensure  0  water  turbulence.  That  way,  the  plants(if  any)  will  be  clear.  All  other  hard  scapes  should  be  clear.  Fish(es)  will  draw  a  nice  pattern  which  generally  looks  good  in  FTS.  
 
 Something  like  this:
 
 
 Note:  This  technique  cannot  be  used  for  moving  subjects.
 
 Warm  regards.
 Arnab.
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saurabh_m
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Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: Lucknow

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone heard of this.. Reply with quote

 Here  are  my  few  shots
 The  Super  moon
 Camera  :  Nikon  Coolpix  L110
 Mode  :  Sunset
 No  Flash
 https://picasaweb.google.com/rasikanayak70/MoonBySaurabh?authkey=Gv1sRgCKyvyIGt-sKdIA#5590853385309289570


Last edited by saurabh_m on Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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saurabh_m
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Posts: 1100
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone heard of this.. Reply with quote

 Another  shot  of  the  same  moon
 Just  zoomed  out
 https://picasaweb.google.com/rasikanayak70/MoonBySaurabh?authkey=Gv1sRgCKyvyIGt-sKdIA#5590853436045085954
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saurabh_m
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Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: Lucknow

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone heard of this.. Reply with quote

 This  one  is  Rotala  rotundifolia  pearling.
 Camera  :  Nikon  Coolpix  L110
 Mode  :  Macro  Food  Mode
 Colours  :  Adjusted
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