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stan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 hi  all,
 
 sorry  to  butt  in  Harsh  just  can't  help  myself[interesting  discussion]...
 agree  your  discus  looks  a  little  off  in  eye  proportion.  the  blue  one  is  not  a  blue  diamond.  
 looks  more  like  a  cobalt  or  reflection  D.  
 blue  diamonds  do  not  have  the  black  band  over  the  eyes.
 
 The  pb[pigeon  blood]  is  not  hormoned.  colour  fed  yes.  normally  beta  carotene  to  give  that  orangey  colour.  quite  harmless.it  will  fade  and  the  real  orange  colour  will  come  out  once  it's  a  year  old  or  so.
 
 hormones[methyl  testosterone]  are  usually  use  on  spotted  juvenile  fish  to  bring  out  it's  spots  earlier  for  better  turnaround[sales!].  you  can  spot  this  with  abnormally  defined  spots  in  a  small  2in  fish.  the  red  ring  around  a  fish  around  the  fish  'D'  section  and  also  long  thread  dorsals  in  females.
 it  is  also  used  to  make  young  blue  diamonds'  blue  colour  come  up  quickly.[sales  again!]
 hormoned  fish  often  are  stunted  because  the  effect  of  hormones  speeds  up  their  maturing  age  [puberty  for  us!].
 sometimes  they  get  liver  failure  and  die  from  secondary  infections  which  try  to  treat  to  no  avail.[aka  100day  fish]
 
 this  unfortunate  practice  of  hormoning  fish  is  not  limited  to  discus.  so  goes  for  colouring  up  fishes  etc.  some  are  harmless  in  small  doses  but  some  are  not.  eg.  CR6...  Thumb Down[/b]
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harsh
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Thanks  Stan  for  the  neat  peice  of  information.
 
 are  you  saying  that  the  PB's  are  just  coloured  not  hormoned?
 
 The  LFS  guy  will  regret  giving  me  these  and  saying  that  they  were  top  quality.  I  think  i'll  get  his  a**  kicked  now.  My  uncle  is  in  the  Indian  Forest  Services  and  i  think  it's  time  for  him  to  get  a  little  taste  of  Indian  Beaurocracy.  Mad
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nerusan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi
 
 Can  I  have  Careys  Contact  too  ,  is  he  from  Mumbai
 
 Rgds
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nerusan
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Joined: Sep 28, 2005
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Location: mumbai

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi
 
 Looking  at  the  pictures  you  have  plated  discus  tank,  do  you  have  any  co2  supplied  to  it  (  or  do  we  require  co2  for  amazon  sword  plants  in  discus  tank
 
 Rgds
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
harsh  wrote:                
Thanks  Stan  for  the  neat  peice  of  information.
 are  you  saying  that  the  PB's  are  just  coloured  not  hormoned?
 The  LFS  guy  will  regret  giving  me  these  and  saying  that  they  were  top  quality.  I  think  i'll  get  his  a**  kicked  now.  My  uncle  is  in  the  Indian  Forest  Services  and  i  think  it's  time  for  him  to  get  a  little  taste  of  Indian  Beaurocracy.  Mad                

 @Harsh,
 I  think  that  is  not  fair!
 The  poor  guy  himself  will  not  be  aware  of  what  he  sold  you    Chuckle  -  let  it  settle  down  a  bit  (don't  get  hyper)
 A  hormoned  discus  if  not  kept  on  hormones  for  a  long  time  will  naturally  loose  the  artificial  colours  as  Beta  suggested  and  will  start  developing  their  natural  colours  -  which  I  suppose  are  not  bad!
 Yes,  as  far  as  the  stunted  growth  is  concerned  -  the  fish  does  take  up  normal  growth  once  they  get  proper  care  -  only  one  thing  you  should  be  concerned  of  at  the  moment  is  that  none  of  them  are  'doomed'
 A  doomed  discus  will  look  shrunk  in  the  head  and  belly  portion  -  if  that  is  the  case  return  them  and  take  your  custom  elsewhere.
 
 @stan,
   Clapping  good  post!
 
                                                 
Quote:                
The  pb[pigeon  blood]  is  not  hormoned.  colour  fed  yes.  normally  beta  carotene  to  give  that  orangey  colour.  quite  harmless.it  will  fade  and  the  real  orange  colour  will  come  out  once  it's  a  year  old  or  so.                

 stan,  I'm  in  this  trade  since  1989  and  know  most  tricks  of  the  trade  -  I  can  tell  you  that  a  cr6  is  better  known  in  the  trade  than  the  carotene  pigment  as  it  gives  a  faster  result  -  the  reason  it  looks  orangish  is  because  the  poor  LFS  guy  could  not  feed  it  the  hormone  (due  to  lack  of  knowledge  of  the  hormone  or  could  not  afford  the  price)  and  it  is  slowly  loosing  the  hormoned  colour  -  Harsh,  just  enquire  how  long  was  the  fish  with  the  LFS  and  how  did  he  house  the  fish?  did  he  over-stock  them  or  were  they  in  a  comfortable  sized  tank?
 I  think  the  stunted  growth  is  not  an  issue  as  the  fish  can  recover  soon  from  the  after  effects  of  the  hormones  IF  it  is  not  kept  for  a  long  time  on  hormones  -  hope  for  the  best!
 In  general  if  the  fish  are  eating  food  and  are  active  -  they  will  make  it!
 One  more  point  of  caution  is  try  to  put  them  in  a  bare-bottom  till  they  are  a  bit  bigger  to  ensure  proper  care  and  ease  of  maintainence!
 HTH
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beta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
stan  wrote:                
The  pb[pigeon  blood]  is  not  hormoned.  colour  fed  yes.  normally  beta  carotene  to  give  that  orangey  colour.  quite  harmless.it  will  fade  and  the  real  orange  colour  will  come  out  once  it's  a  year  old  or  so.                

 
 Lets  hope  so!
 AFAIK  breeders  won't  use  Astaxanthin  on  a  pigeon  blood.  Costly  supplement  for  a  cheap  variety!
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toomanyfish
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 ya  he  stays  in  mumbai  andheri  west....
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harsh
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 @nerusan
 yes  i  give  CO2  using  the  2ltr  Coke  bottle  method.
 
 @Aquascapes
 The  fish  were  at  the  LFS  tank  for  at  the  most  2Hrs.  he  housed  14  of  them  in  a  10G  tank  along  with  25Kuhli  loaches  and  36  Tetras  (DYED  !!).  I  only  have  one  tank  now  and  it  is  well  planted  after  5-6  tries  to  planted  tanks  so  i'll  not  be  turning  it  into  a  barebottom  tank.  They  are  feeding  like  crazy  (on  bloodworms,  not  so  interested  in  the  bits)  and  seem  normally  active  to  me.  they  are  not  showing  dark  or  dull  skin  which  AFAIK  is  sigh  of  high  ammonia.  
 One  thing,  1  or    2  of  them  were  like  scratching  themselves  against  plant  leaves(not  a  lot  but  a  couple  of  times)  is  some  thing  wrong  ?  i  observed  them  closely  and  they  looked  OK  to  me.
 
 and  i  don't  think  any  of  them  can  be  categorized  as  doomed  because  they  all  eat  good  and  are  equally  and  normally  active,  just  one  red  is  skinnier  than  the  rest  other  than  that  they  all  seem  good.
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toomanyfish
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 you  seem  to  be  happy  with  them  would  advise  you  then  to  keep  them  and  have  a  go...for  all  you  know  they    might  turn  out  good
 Best  of  luck    Thumb Up
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stan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:50 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 hi  all,
 
 wow...opened  a  can  of  worms.  ...but  this  is  the  only  way  to  stop[minimize]  the  practice  of  hormoning  and  over  colouring  fish.
 
 Harsh,  as  aquascapes  said  ,  the  lfs  guy  may  know  nothing  of  what  the  breeder  has  done.  don't  hurt  the  seller!  but  you  can  still  let  him  have  a  piece  of  your  mind!
 
 Aquascapes,  i'm  from  malaysia  and  i  can  tell  you  honestly  i  know  at  least  75%  or  more  of  the  tricks  in  one  year  after  a  joining  a  group  of  serious  discus  enthusiasts.  singaporean,  indonesian  breeders  included.
 I  have  had  long  chats  with  Andrew  Soh  [author  of  Discus  the  Naked  Truth,  discus  breeder  for  over32  years]  over  in  Kuala  Lumpur  and  basically  what  he  says  does  confirm  my  suspicions.  Breeders  are  a  crafty  lot.  they  do  what  they  do  to  survive.  in  our  case  the  flower  horn  craze  was  disastrous  for  the  discus  industry  locally...so  the  tricks  come  out.
 
 Andrew  himself[singaporean]  admits  to  using  hormones  to  sort  out  the  fish  and  cull.  this  is  standard  practice  to  avoid  wasting  time  and  resources  on  variants/throwbacks  nobody  wants.
 
 As  was  said...  the  practice  of  hormoning  a  little  is  ok...as  long  as  the  breeder  knows  what  he's  doing.  overdoing  it  leads  to  stunted  and  100  day  fish.
 yes  CR6  is  pretty  expensive  but  one  dose  is  enough  to  get  the  fish  nice  and  ready  for  sale.  [CR6-  the  manufacturer  claim  it  has  no  hormones.  a  synthetic  colour  enhancer  mainly  for  red  fish]  we  are  is  suspicious  of  this  claim  as  as  soon  as  we  use  it.  the  blue  in  the  fish  comes  out.  just  like  using  hormones...so  we  avoid  it.
 
 others  include  XXXXXbits.  the  claim  they  use  natural  colour  enhancers  which  look  suspiciously  like  astaxanthin[man  made].  
 the  list  is  goes  on  but  there's  little  to  regulate  this.  
 it's  only  fish  to  some  people.
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stan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
beta  wrote:                
                                                 
stan  wrote:                
The  pb[pigeon  blood]  is  not  hormoned.  colour  fed  yes.  normally  beta  carotene  to  give  that  orangey  colour.  quite  harmless.it  will  fade  and  the  real  orange  colour  will  come  out  once  it's  a  year  old  or  so.                

 
 Lets  hope  so!
 AFAIK  breeders  won't  use  Astaxanthin  on  a  pigeon  blood.  Costly  supplement  for  a  cheap  variety!                

 
 astaxanthin  is  a  bit  pricey  compared  to  beta  carotene.  but  nevertheless  to  ensure  sales  you  can  never  doubt  it's  being  used.  i've  bought  beef  heart  laced  with  beta  carotene  and  the  fish  look  orangey  just  like  the  pb  Harsh  has  posted.
 not  a  lasting  thing  and  BC  isn't  harmful  and  the  colour  fades  and  the  real  onrange  colour  does  kick  in  once  the  fish  matures.
 
 i'm  not  familiar  in  your  local  scene  but  over  here  the  usage  of  Astaxanthin  pretty  rampant.  there's  carophyll  yellow  and  carophyll  pink[mix  of  yellow  and  asta]
 some  breeders  we  visit  we  call  it  the  chinese  new  year  place...seeing  red  everywhere.Chuckle  
 
 Anyway  it's  good  to  discuss  this  with  you  guys  and  get  to  know  the  scene  over  in  India  where  little  is  known  from  our  side  of  the  world  not  that  we  don't  try...  Smile
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harsh
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:16 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Welcome  to  IAH  Stan.  
 
 
                                                 
stan  wrote:                

 others  include  XXXXXbits.  the  claim  they  use  natural  colour  enhancers  which  look  suspiciously  like  astaxanthin[man  made].  
 the  list  is  goes  on  but  there's  little  to  regulate  this.  
 it's  only  fish  to  some  people.                

 
 This  is  some  new  info  regarding  XXXXXbits.
 thanks


Last edited by harsh on Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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stan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:18 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 oh  don't  judge  it  to  harshly[no  pun  intended!]
 
 the  do  have  a  breeder  version  which  gives  the  fish  a  mild  yellow  colour.
 
 the  regular  and  breeder  bits  i  do  feed  once  awhile  to  keep  your  discus  interested  in  dry  food  because  when  the  need  arises  that  is  the  best  dry  food  you  can  give  your  fish  when  you're  on  holiday  or  when  they  are  sick  as  it  does  not  foul  the  water  as  bad  as  meat/shrimp  recipes.
 
 without  enhancers  most  of  the  new  strains  you  see  on  the  market  are  actually  very  pale  and  colourless  save  a  few.  the  true  colour  strains  retain  the  colour  feed  for  a  very  long  period.  my  melons  are  still  red  after  i  stopped  feeding  them  bits  or  beta  carotene  food  for  two  years.
 
 the  key  is  to  minimize  the  the  colour  feeds.  i  used  to  see  this  as  an  evil  ploy  for  sales  but  right  now  i  see  that  it's  important  for  the  hobbyist  to  know  what  they  are  buying  and  make  a  stand  on  whether  they  can  accept  what's  being  sold  to  them.  nowadays  i  avoid  overly  coloured  fish...but  once  awhile  can't  resist.  still  silly  i  guess  but  it's  the  coloured  ones  that  are  more  attractive.  :duh:  my  policy  now  is  as  long  as  they're  not  stunted  or  sterile...  i  have  a  few  local  breeders  on  the  banned  list...
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nichefish
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:54 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 i  wish  i  had  a  lfs  too  where  i  could  get  discus  without  paying  any  bucks  !!
 
 all  the  best  to  you  for  your  king  school
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