Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 111 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. Help!
Hi guys,
I have a 36''*18''*15'' tank which houses 2 flowerhorns with a transparent glass separator in between. The first fish i bought was a female which is with me for the past 2 yrs and i introduced a male in February this year. The intention was to try and breed both.
Last friday when i did a 60% water change as always, and had removed the separator for an hour and FH's started fighting. I waited for an hour and then decided to put the glass separator back. Ever since the Female FH which is with me for 2 years, has stopped eating.
The situation grew serious a few hours back, when i noticed that her face has turned black and is confined to a corner of the tank. The black coloring is only till the gills, the rest of the body remains normal colour. The male FH is perfectly normal.
Can some of the experts tell me what's wrong with my fish ? What is this condition called and how do i treat it ?
I regularly use chingmix head booster for the male and Hikari Cichlid Biogold+ for the female.
I have a 36''*18''*15'' tank which houses 2 flowerhorns with a transparent glass separator in between. The first fish i bought was a female which is with me for the past 2 yrs and i introduced a male in February this year. The intention was to try and breed both.
Last friday when i did a 60% water change as always, and had removed the separator for an hour and FH's started fighting. I waited for an hour and then decided to put the glass separator back. Ever since the Female FH which is with me for 2 years, has stopped eating.
The situation grew serious a few hours back, when i noticed that her face has turned black and is confined to a corner of the tank. The black coloring is only till the gills, the rest of the body remains normal colour. The male FH is perfectly normal.
Can some of the experts tell me what's wrong with my fish ? What is this condition called and how do i treat it ?
I regularly use chingmix head booster for the male and Hikari Cichlid Biogold+ for the female.
After reading the elaborate history that you provided, I think that there might be nothing wrong with your fish. Female flowerhorns do display such behaviour when angry or frightened or when in heat. She simply seems to be either pissed off or horny dude. She might even lay eggs in the coming few days.
In order to calm her down and restore her to her normal self, keep the tank's lights switched off for 2-3 days and do't make any loud noises or sudden movements when near her.
Alternatively, you might provide her with a hiding spot like a clay pot or cover the tank with sheet for 2-3 days.
But before you do any of this, search her for any sign of injury, especially on the jaw, that may require treatment.
These are my prime suspicions. However, as Sumit said, some good pictures or a clear video would have given a better impression of the situation.
Joined: Aug 13, 2011 Posts: 74 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Hi shashank,
It happened with my flowerhorn pair also, when I removed the partition I noticed that they bite eachothers lips and start playing in the begining I thaught they must me in a phase of breeding....but later i saw the scars on female body and I understood that they have not reached the maturation phase for breeding (usually the male tries dominating and makes the scars on the female body when the lights are turned off...you see this stage when the male or the female is not matured for breeding), so i seperated the pairs again....after which they are fine.
May be the say situation in your condition I am not sure......
I may be wrong but this is what I observed from my FH pair....
Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 111 Location: Bangalore
Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Couldn't figure out how to upload pics directly so i'm sharing the link for my album. Please look at the pics and tell me what is the condition called and how to treat it.
After reading the elaborate history that you provided, I think that there might be nothing wrong with your fish. Female flowerhorns do display such behaviour when angry or frightened or when in heat. She simply seems to be either pissed off or horny dude. She might even lay eggs in the coming few days.
In order to calm her down and restore her to her normal self, keep the tank's lights switched off for 2-3 days and do't make any loud noises or sudden movements when near her.
Alternatively, you might provide her with a hiding spot like a clay pot or cover the tank with sheet for 2-3 days.
But before you do any of this, search her for any sign of injury, especially on the jaw, that may require treatment.
These are my prime suspicions. However, as Sumit said, some good pictures or a clear video would have given a better impression of the situation.
The details were elaborate to provide you with an idea of the tank setup I don't have a clay pot big enough for her to hide in, plus about noises, unfortunately the tank is right next to the TV so it wouldn't be possible to avoid noise entirely. I'll try covering it with a sheet though. Have already uploaded the pics to my alnum and the link is in the previous post.
Here's a link to the video, sorry about the quality:
Thanks for the link, i'd read it yesterday before posting the thread. In their case the WHOLE fish turned black, but in my case its only till the gills. Plus the fish was its normal self, but mine's is not eating and has become lethargic also.
Joined: Dec 09, 2008 Posts: 665 Location: Mumbai Dahisar (w)
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
I just saw the pics and vid. I must say that your fish are healthy and huge. Rather the female is too huge for the male. Nothing I had expected.
I still think that the fish is acting out of stress, the prime cause being hormonal. She might very well be having some fertility issues, considering her size and age.
That's not a part of fading. Certainly not at that age and size.
I need you to answer few questions that have arisen in my mind after seeing your fish.
1 What is the exact size of the female?
2 What size was she when you bought her 2 years back?
3 In the 2 years that you have had her, has she layed eggs?
4 What is/was the frequency of egglaying?
5 Did you ever try to mate her before buying this male? What ws your experience then?
6 Did she stop laying eggs for a long time in this period?
7 When was the last time that she layed eggs?
Waiting eagerly for your answers. Meanwhile, follow my advice from the earlier post.
Joined: Dec 09, 2008 Posts: 665 Location: Mumbai Dahisar (w)
Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Something I left out in the previous post:
Also, after watching the video, I noticed that the female had a very bulky belly.
Tell me whether it is normal for her or has it bulged only recently.
Has she been pooping out white thready poop or have there been gas bubbles in it?
Also, the gravel make me concerned.
I have 2 further concerns which I won't voice at this stage. I will wait for your answers to either rule them out or consolidate them before sharing them with you.
I just saw the pics and vid. I must say that your fish are healthy and huge. Rather the female is too huge for the male. Nothing I had expected.
I still think that the fish is acting out of stress, the prime cause being hormonal. She might very well be having some fertility issues, considering her size and age.
That's not a part of fading. Certainly not at that age and size.
I need you to answer few questions that have arisen in my mind after seeing your fish.
1 What is the exact size of the female?
2 What size was she when you bought her 2 years back?
3 In the 2 years that you have had her, has she layed eggs?
4 What is/was the frequency of egglaying?
5 Did you ever try to mate her before buying this male? What ws your experience then?
6 Did she stop laying eggs for a long time in this period?
7 When was the last time that she layed eggs?
Waiting eagerly for your answers. Meanwhile, follow my advice from the earlier post.
size of the female-Now about 1 feet i guess, measuring from end-to-end
2 What size was she when you bought her 2 years back- Around 4 inches, she rew rapidly as she was in the only one in the tank for a year.
3 In the 2 years that you have had her, has she layed eggs- I don't know for sure, but she has cleared up a part of the gravel and the glass was visible in that area, apart from it i have no idea.
4 What is/was the frequency of egglaying-No idea to be honest.
5 Did you ever try to mate her before buying this male? What ws your experience then-No, the first time i tried was last thursday and the fight got rather vicious, so i put the separator back.
6 Did she stop laying eggs for a long time in this period?
7 When was the last time that she layed eggs?6&7 i've no idea, but since the fight lst thursday she hasn't cleared up the gravel like what she used to do before.
You have a keen eye my friend i too noticed the bulge, certainly a recent occurrence and i don't see any poop in the last few days from her
Joined: Dec 09, 2008 Posts: 665 Location: Mumbai Dahisar (w)
Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Thanks for the quick reply. Answers that lead to more questions.
Let us analyze your situation with respect to the two main possibilities:
1 Infertility.
2 Gastrointestinal Tract obstruction. ( a more serious concern )
You bought a 4" flowerhorn 2 years back and placed it alone in a tank with gravel. The flowerhorn exhibited fast growth and good development. It used to clear up the gravel for a nesting spot but you haven't seen any eggs till now. Now the flowerhorn is 12 inches long. Is it correct?
The question that immediately arises in my mind is, 'What led you to believe that your flowerhorn is a female, in the first place?'
Your'e flowerhorn might very well be a male. Notice that in your video, the male has cleared a patch of gravel for nesting. Males exhibit that behaviour primarily to attract a female to lay in their nest. In the absence of a male, the female alone takes up the role.
If the flowerhorn is a female at all, she is currently infertile. Female flowerhorns can stop laying eggs at will. I had a female flowerhorn who was mated with a male. They were a set pair and were housed together. This female laid eggs every month without fail. One darned night, my airpump stopped working due to short circuit and the male died. His female mate stopped laying eggs for the next 6 months. A form of self imposed ifertility in the absence of / the grief of the passing of a mate. But after six months, she resumed her monthly egg laying. At this time, she showed a colouration similar to your fish, with the body pale and the head and fins totally dark. Returned to her normal colour after laying the eggs.
Now coming to the more serious possibility of acute bloating due to alimentary tract obstruction. If it's true, its an emergency as it might very well lead to your fish's death in a few days.
The gravel concern me since there is a chance of accidental swallowing and impaction of a piece of gravel during display of aggression and a fight. It will be great if you remove the gravel and keep your flowerhorns in a barebottom in the future.
If the case is such, there is very little that can be done. But I need you to conduct a small procedure to come to a diagnosis. It includes handling the fish out of the water. I'll guide you through it.
You will need:
1) A bucket filled upto 6-7inches with dechlorinated water, containing 1 teaspoon of rocksalt and 4 drops/liter of methylene blue.
2) A soft clean cotton cloth or an old cotton vest.
3) A good torchlight.
Procedure:
Fill the bucket with 6-7inches of dechlorinated water such that the fish is just completely submersible. Add 1 teaspoon of noniodized salt and 4 drops per liter of methylene blue. Agitate the water to dissolve all contents well. Wait for 10 minutes.
Get someone to assist you in the procedure if possible.
Trim your nails. Wash and scrub your hands clean upto the elbows.
Soak the clean soft cotton cloth with the water in the bucket and use it while handling the fish.
Now remove the fish gently into the bucket and wait for couple of minutes.
Now using the soaked cloth, remove the fish out of the water. Using a tip of the cloth wrapped around your finger, open the fish's mouth to the full, gently and shine the torch into its depths. Inspect the entire cavity, especially, the furthest part and see whether you can spot any impacted gravel.
If yes, take him to a vet or attempt to remove it with assistance, using a pair of forceps or any blunt tipped angular probe, carefully.
Next, using the cloth, remove the fish out of the water, but still in the bucket ( So that even if it were to slip, it will slide smoothly into the water without hurting itself ) and turn it over. Now gently squeeze the bulging belly from one side at a time, using the soft part of your fingertip. The pressure should be gentle. While doing so, get your assistant to shine the torch upon the anogenital region and look out for any discharge (like clear fluid or gas or poop or pus ) or herniation. Ease on the pressure if such a thing occurs. Feel whether you can feel a hard lump in the abdomen at any point. Do this in a intermittent fashion by releasing the fish back in the water at 30 second intervals. Palpate the entire abdomen.
In case of pus or white/bloody discharge or gas, treatment with metronidazole (flagyl) is recommended for both fish.
In case of a hard lump, consult a vet or wait for the fish to naturally vomit out or pass out the gravel. But the chances of survival in this case are faint.
After the procedure, even if there is no abnormality detected, keep the fish in this medicated and aerated bath for 2 days before introduction into the barebottom.
I don't intend to freak you out, but those are the likely possibilities. Lets hope that its only a mood swing and not anything serious.
Thanks for the quick reply. Answers that lead to more questions.
Let us analyze your situation with respect to the two main possibilities:
1 Infertility.
2 Gastrointestinal Tract obstruction. ( a more serious concern )
You bought a 4" flowerhorn 2 years back and placed it alone in a tank with gravel. The flowerhorn exhibited fast growth and good development. It used to clear up the gravel for a nesting spot but you haven't seen any eggs till now. Now the flowerhorn is 12 inches long. Is it correct?
The question that immediately arises in my mind is, 'What led you to believe that your flowerhorn is a female, in the first place?'
Your'e flowerhorn might very well be a male. Notice that in your video, the male has cleared a patch of gravel for nesting. Males exhibit that behaviour primarily to attract a female to lay in their nest. In the absence of a male, the female alone takes up the role.
If the flowerhorn is a female at all, she is currently infertile. Female flowerhorns can stop laying eggs at will. I had a female flowerhorn who was mated with a male. They were a set pair and were housed together. This female laid eggs every month without fail. One darned night, my airpump stopped working due to short circuit and the male died. His female mate stopped laying eggs for the next 6 months. A form of self imposed ifertility in the absence of / the grief of the passing of a mate. But after six months, she resumed her monthly egg laying. At this time, she showed a colouration similar to your fish, with the body pale and the head and fins totally dark. Returned to her normal colour after laying the eggs.
Now coming to the more serious possibility of acute bloating due to alimentary tract obstruction. If it's true, its an emergency as it might very well lead to your fish's death in a few days.
The gravel concern me since there is a chance of accidental swallowing and impaction of a piece of gravel during display of aggression and a fight. It will be great if you remove the gravel and keep your flowerhorns in a barebottom in the future.
If the case is such, there is very little that can be done. But I need you to conduct a small procedure to come to a diagnosis. It includes handling the fish out of the water. I'll guide you through it.
You will need:
1) A bucket filled upto 6-7inches with dechlorinated water, containing 1 teaspoon of rocksalt and 4 drops/liter of methylene blue.
2) A soft clean cotton cloth or an old cotton vest.
3) A good torchlight.
Procedure:
Fill the bucket with 6-7inches of dechlorinated water such that the fish is just completely submersible. Add 1 teaspoon of noniodized salt and 4 drops per liter of methylene blue. Agitate the water to dissolve all contents well. Wait for 10 minutes.
Get someone to assist you in the procedure if possible.
Trim your nails. Wash and scrub your hands clean upto the elbows.
Soak the clean soft cotton cloth with the water in the bucket and use it while handling the fish.
Now remove the fish gently into the bucket and wait for couple of minutes.
Now using the soaked cloth, remove the fish out of the water. Using a tip of the cloth wrapped around your finger, open the fish's mouth to the full, gently and shine the torch into its depths. Inspect the entire cavity, especially, the furthest part and see whether you can spot any impacted gravel.
If yes, take him to a vet or attempt to remove it with assistance, using a pair of forceps or any blunt tipped angular probe, carefully.
Next, using the cloth, remove the fish out of the water, but still in the bucket ( So that even if it were to slip, it will slide smoothly into the water without hurting itself ) and turn it over. Now gently squeeze the bulging belly from one side at a time, using the soft part of your fingertip. The pressure should be gentle. While doing so, get your assistant to shine the torch upon the anogenital region and look out for any discharge (like clear fluid or gas or poop or pus ) or herniation. Ease on the pressure if such a thing occurs. Feel whether you can feel a hard lump in the abdomen at any point. Do this in a intermittent fashion by releasing the fish back in the water at 30 second intervals. Palpate the entire abdomen.
In case of pus or white/bloody discharge or gas, treatment with metronidazole (flagyl) is recommended for both fish.
In case of a hard lump, consult a vet or wait for the fish to naturally vomit out or pass out the gravel. But the chances of survival in this case are faint.
After the procedure, even if there is no abnormality detected, keep the fish in this medicated and aerated bath for 2 days before introduction into the barebottom.
I don't intend to freak you out, but those are the likely possibilities. Lets hope that its only a mood swing and not anything serious.
Waiting for your reply. All the best.
Ok it may be a case of swallowed gravel as you suspect, because this behaviour was after the fight they had so in that aggression i think it might have accidently swallowed a small piece. I just tried to inspect the cavity using a a torch, though its stupid to conclude, i fortunately found nothing. I pray it hasn't swallowed anything.
The reason why i thought it was a female was because even when it was alone in the tank it never cleared up the gravel like what the male did, no head growth (i know it can happen with males too)plus the inspection around the anus also pointed out it was a female, though i'm not fully sure of it.
So in the unfortunate event of it having swallowed gravel, and if i can't remove it, do you have any idea who are the people who may be able to help me out ? I've never come across a vet who looks at fishes so not entirely sure. Are the fisheries department people of some help ?
I really hope it comes through this safe :(
EDIT: Should i remove the gravel right away ? won't it seriously affect the nitrogen cycle in the tank and affect the fish ?
Thanks for the quick reply. Answers that lead to more questions.
Let us analyze your situation with respect to the two main possibilities:
1 Infertility.
2 Gastrointestinal Tract obstruction. ( a more serious concern )
You bought a 4" flowerhorn 2 years back and placed it alone in a tank with gravel. The flowerhorn exhibited fast growth and good development. It used to clear up the gravel for a nesting spot but you haven't seen any eggs till now. Now the flowerhorn is 12 inches long. Is it correct?
The question that immediately arises in my mind is, 'What led you to believe that your flowerhorn is a female, in the first place?'
Your'e flowerhorn might very well be a male. Notice that in your video, the male has cleared a patch of gravel for nesting. Males exhibit that behaviour primarily to attract a female to lay in their nest. In the absence of a male, the female alone takes up the role.
If the flowerhorn is a female at all, she is currently infertile. Female flowerhorns can stop laying eggs at will. I had a female flowerhorn who was mated with a male. They were a set pair and were housed together. This female laid eggs every month without fail. One darned night, my airpump stopped working due to short circuit and the male died. His female mate stopped laying eggs for the next 6 months. A form of self imposed ifertility in the absence of / the grief of the passing of a mate. But after six months, she resumed her monthly egg laying. At this time, she showed a colouration similar to your fish, with the body pale and the head and fins totally dark. Returned to her normal colour after laying the eggs.
Now coming to the more serious possibility of acute bloating due to alimentary tract obstruction. If it's true, its an emergency as it might very well lead to your fish's death in a few days.
The gravel concern me since there is a chance of accidental swallowing and impaction of a piece of gravel during display of aggression and a fight. It will be great if you remove the gravel and keep your flowerhorns in a barebottom in the future.
If the case is such, there is very little that can be done. But I need you to conduct a small procedure to come to a diagnosis. It includes handling the fish out of the water. I'll guide you through it.
You will need:
1) A bucket filled upto 6-7inches with dechlorinated water, containing 1 teaspoon of rocksalt and 4 drops/liter of methylene blue.
2) A soft clean cotton cloth or an old cotton vest.
3) A good torchlight.
Procedure:
Fill the bucket with 6-7inches of dechlorinated water such that the fish is just completely submersible. Add 1 teaspoon of noniodized salt and 4 drops per liter of methylene blue. Agitate the water to dissolve all contents well. Wait for 10 minutes.
Get someone to assist you in the procedure if possible.
Trim your nails. Wash and scrub your hands clean upto the elbows.
Soak the clean soft cotton cloth with the water in the bucket and use it while handling the fish.
Now remove the fish gently into the bucket and wait for couple of minutes.
Now using the soaked cloth, remove the fish out of the water. Using a tip of the cloth wrapped around your finger, open the fish's mouth to the full, gently and shine the torch into its depths. Inspect the entire cavity, especially, the furthest part and see whether you can spot any impacted gravel.
If yes, take him to a vet or attempt to remove it with assistance, using a pair of forceps or any blunt tipped angular probe, carefully.
Next, using the cloth, remove the fish out of the water, but still in the bucket ( So that even if it were to slip, it will slide smoothly into the water without hurting itself ) and turn it over. Now gently squeeze the bulging belly from one side at a time, using the soft part of your fingertip. The pressure should be gentle. While doing so, get your assistant to shine the torch upon the anogenital region and look out for any discharge (like clear fluid or gas or poop or pus ) or herniation. Ease on the pressure if such a thing occurs. Feel whether you can feel a hard lump in the abdomen at any point. Do this in a intermittent fashion by releasing the fish back in the water at 30 second intervals. Palpate the entire abdomen.
In case of pus or white/bloody discharge or gas, treatment with metronidazole (flagyl) is recommended for both fish.
In case of a hard lump, consult a vet or wait for the fish to naturally vomit out or pass out the gravel. But the chances of survival in this case are faint.
After the procedure, even if there is no abnormality detected, keep the fish in this medicated and aerated bath for 2 days before introduction into the barebottom.
I don't intend to freak you out, but those are the likely possibilities. Lets hope that its only a mood swing and not anything serious.
Waiting for your reply. All the best.
Ok it may be a case of swallowed gravel as you suspect, because this behaviour was after the fight they had so in that aggression i think it might have accidently swallowed a small piece. I just tried to inspect the cavity using a a torch, though its stupid to conclude, i fortunately found nothing. I pray it hasn't swallowed anything.
The reason why i thought it was a female was because even when it was alone in the tank it never cleared up the gravel like what the male did, no head growth (i know it can happen with males too)plus the inspection around the anus also pointed out it was a female, though i'm not fully sure of it.
So in the unfortunate event of it having swallowed gravel, and if i can't remove it, do you have any idea who are the people who may be able to help me out ? I've never come across a vet who looks at fishes so not entirely sure. Are the fisheries department people of some help ?
I really hope it comes through this safe :(
EDIT: Should i remove the gravel right away ? won't it seriously affect the nitrogen cycle in the tank and affect the fish ?
We'll decide on his sex when times are better.
Did you try palpating?
The gravel shouldn't have been there in the first place. Remove them as soon as possible. Siphon out the wastes from the bottom and conduct a 50-60% water change. See to it that the water is properly dechlorinated.
You're right about the vets though. Very few of them actually treat fish.
If there is any impacted gravel at all and it ain't visible from the mouth, it's hard to be removed by any procedure.
Since the diagnosis isn't confirmed, emetics cannot be advised. Lets wait and watch for future developments. Let me know as soon as you spot something new.
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I don't have a clay pot big enough for her to hide in, plus about noises, unfortunately the tank is right next to the TV so it wouldn't be possible to avoid noise entirely. I'll try covering it with a sheet though. Have already uploaded the pics to my alnum and the link is in the previous post.
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