Ok in that case i prefer to euthanise him. may be experts could've tried administering an injection to him but since i don't possess those skills, its humane to not experiment on a dying fish. What needs to be done to euthinise him ?
Its horrifying news brother Shashank. This whole mercy killing business was unfortunate. I have't experienced your situation before and hence cannot fathom the depth of your grief. But know that I share it with you.
I'd also want to know what went so drastically wrong in my tank that it resulted in my fish dying so quickly ?
What's past is past, but as a close follower of this thread right from it's conception, i'll try to answer your questions to help you in the future. Here, I place my personal opinions straight forward only because you have asked for that.
1. First the female who died on sunday
a. What was the infection which set-in first ? Symptoms like blackened face and loss of appetite.
We are hobbyists, not vets and didn't conduct any laboratory tests. So pinpointing the exact causative agent is impossible. As to the symptoms, of all that I have read about flowerhorn diseases in the last two months, I found your case to be unique. There was no mention of only the face turning black on any website on the net. I think that the experts will also agree on that. So the diagnosis was actually difficult. They had only the data that you gave and their experience to guide them. And they did their jobs well and so did you.
b. Subsequently, what did i do wrong that led to a secondary and i suppose more lethal infection to set-in ?
Only God knows that. I personally don't think that it had anything to do with what you did. You tried your best. I am not sure bout this secondary infection since you have used flagyl, the best and safest antibiotic that I have known and used for my fishes.
c. In this case, what could've been done to save her ?
You already did all that you could do. I don't know about the wrong dosing and IMO that wasn't your fault at all. It happens with all of us and so, take it off your conscience. As far as I have read and know, flagyl is a very common drug used in internal parasitic infections and has been used at higher doses by other hobbyists successfully with no side effects. I myself have at times stuffed an entire 400mg tablet inside a feeder and fed it to my channas, carps and catfish, without worrying about overdosing and they were fine. So I don't understand this kidney damage part in such a short time. Also, if you google it up, you'll find that flagyl is not only an antiprotozoal, but is also a broad spectrum antibiotic effective in gram negative and anaerobic infections.
d. Is hemorhagic septicemia so deadly ? Is there no cure for this infection ?
Now that's a big term. But it might or might not be your case. Again, we are talking about a fish here, who wasn't run through lab evaluation and not seen by qualified vet. The diagnoses by our friends were mere guesses based on the limited data available and based on their experiences and knowledge.
b. Despite administering antibiotics, why did he fail to recover ?
Antibiotics aren't magic pills. They have a set mechanism of action. They are unlike antiseptics and disinfectants, which act immediately on contact. They have a set course and have to be given for a specific number of days to benefit from them. If you donot complete the course, you raise the resistance in the causative organism, thus worsening the infection. Not much research has been done in fish regarding dosage of antibiotics and we follow hearsay when using them in the hobby. So their exact action on individual fish is unpredictable.
Now some hard facts. What I saw in your case was that you lacked patience and panicked a lot. In doing so, you never completed the course of any single antibiotic. So you cannot expect a cure. Plus you mixed up a lot of medications in a very short time. I have a feeling that by the mixing of all of the LFS guy's, Kastor's and Krash's medications, there might have been some adverse reaction in your fish. I haven't even heard of most of these drugs being used in aquarium fish before, leave alone on the same fish and at the same time. You should have done some research of your own and followed only one course and stuck to it. But you decided to step on all stones at one time. Now that's dangerous. I saw where this was going and had asked you to stop medicating, but you were all charged. I might appear being critical at a bad time, but if you need an unbiased feedback, here it is. I also feel that you should have gone ahead with the post mortem as I had suggested. Atleast we would have got a fighting chance. But what's done is done. Don't regret that and move ahead with a strong spirit. Don't give up.
c. Is aeromonas bacterial infection so deadly that it can't be treated ?
I am a science student and understand that you need a microscope fitted to your eyes to see what microorganism has infected a tissue. So I don't know how brother Krash named so many microbes only based on symptoms. Maybe he is a vet or has first hand experience in treating many infections in many fish. But know that what he did was shortlist the possible agents causing such a condition. Nothing for sure. So aeromonas or not is a big question again.
You are no trained fish handler. You are just a normal hobbyist like us. So you are prone to make mistakes and should not feel guilty about them. we improve with bad experiences. So don't ask such questions. What your role was, to keep your fish happy for 2 long years. And know that that is a long period of time by any standards. So know that you were a good keeper and will always be..
a. I've always thought FH were strong and hardy fish, but it seems like i was wrong. Is their resistance less when compared to pure breeds ?
b. Will naturally occurring cichlids like Oscars, Green terror, Red terror etc. be more resistant and have a better chance of survival ?
c. I presume my skills as a fish-keeper are not upto the mark. Was my only mistake overdose of flagyl, or was there other places where i went wrong ?
Why this question on Hybrids out of thin air? A fish with bad immunity wouldn't have lived with you for two years. Flowerhorns are as healthy as any other fish. Rather they are hardier than most. Your skills as a fishkeeper are great and are improving by the day. Have faith in yourself. Just don't panic and try everything on your fish at the same time. Stick to a time-tested medication and pray for them. What fish you will keep in the future is your choice. But don't judge a fish by the purity of it's breed. Follow your heart.
Joined: Dec 13, 2009 Posts: 108 Location: Bangalore
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He
Thanks for the feedback Channaguy. After reading it though i was hurt, it was a good assessment of what 'I' did wrong. The main reason i panicked and tried various medicines was:
a. After searching for symptoms like face turning black and finding just one result online, i panicked as there was no idea of what was wrong in the first place to know how to treat it. I was wrong in buying meds from the LFS guy. I was in half-mind when i was buying them, so shouldn't have continued with it.
b. The reason i shifted to flagyl was because of the poop i saw, it showed classic signs of hernia and flagyl was the recommended medicine.
c. Then again, i discontinued flagyl, based on Krash's recommendation that it was already overdose. My female FH was dead, and i desperately wanted to save my Male FH. In that confusion, i failed to pause and think what will be the effect of SO many drugs on his body like what you pointed out.
d. I did all in my capacity to save them. Whether it was my inexperience, or lack of understanding of the symptoms, or my lack of patience to try out one drug and finish the dosage, which ultimately caused the death of my fish i do not know. All i know is i'll miss them both terribly.
OT: My heart was always set on the mighty Asian Arowana from the time i got into this hobby, but i don't know if i'm 'skilled' enough to keep them. Budget and space for a 6-footer is not an issue
Really? Whats the need of these false condolences? You stayed out when this guy was in need of help. So why post now? Happy that two hybrids got wasted and its time to brainwash the owner's mind?
But naturally being a newbie, his Hybrid will not be catered to well and will get into problems. That is where we the serious hobbyists intervene in a humane way for the sake of that fish and slowly try to wean the Hobbyist away from Hybridkeeping by informing him the perils of it.
The primary mistake you made was none of the above, but forgetting to consult your six friends.
Who, What, Why, Where, When and How.
I went through your whole thread and never saw you questioning any of the suggestion or asking the credentials of the advisers.
I am sure none of them would have minded answering you, and only after you were convinced of the genuinity you could have proceeded in treating your fish.
Best of luck next time.
Aren't you ashamed of yourself? You watched this guy's fish die. You and other "Authentic" experts watched the tamasha all these days. Then when the expert doctors like yourself were watching the fun, a couple of stupid, useless and oversmart quacks tried to help this guy out, based on their meagre knowledge and pseudo-expertise. You doctors felt that the poor guy was being misguided, but instead of saying so at the right time, you decided to conserve your energy and skills for the eulogy. Bravo. And now, while you deliver it, you have the nerve to challenge the authenticity of those who volunteered to help. Better to have such guys who at least try to help us out, even if they may fail at times, than experts like you guys who choose to ignore our pleas when we need help desperately. I will introduce you to my six friends.
1 Who exactly is this guy? Nayak or Khalnayak
2 What was he doing when Shashank asked desperately for help?
3 Why did he not guide him if he felt that he was being misleaded?
4 Where did he suddenly appear from today in a Hybrid post?
5 When will he realize that hybrids are also living creatures, that they have equal right to exist like other living things and their taxonomical status is of no concern to their owner?
6 How does he live with himself?
Have fun with them Nayak. I showed my maturity when I replied to your earlier post and expected the same from you. But you didn't deserve my faith. When will you grow up Nayak? Please stop your dirty tactics. Learn to be unbiased. Remember that you are a moderator, not a dictator. Know that when someone expresses their faith in you, reciprocate with the same. Know that a private message is a part of privileged communication, not something to be displayed publicly. That only highlights how egoistic and uncouthed you are. You are not fit to be a mod Nayak. If you have even an ounce of shame left, step down or correct yourself such that your juniors like myself will respect you. look at how your seniors have run these forums in the past and look at your recent activity. You learned a lot in this hobby since you got proper guidance and support from the masters. You were lucky. But everyone isn't. We learn by trial and error and share our experiences with others so that they may benefit. We do that since no senior expert is here to guide us when we need it. But you can't tolerate that. It's your forum and your rules after all. Run it as you wish, but give this due consideration, if you find it in you. Know tht the hobby is dynamic and while we preserve the good old customs, we must welcome the new trends. Don't decide for others whether the new trends are good or bad. Let them decide themselves. Just inform them of the pros and cons. But keep your mind open. If the change is for the good, it will stay on and if it is for that bad, it will perish eventually. Remember that 'When leaders speak for change, CHANGE HAPPENS, but when leaders try to suppress change, SHEEEEEEET HAPPENS'.
As of me, I'm through with people like you, who cross other's paths try to trample them. You have spoiled IAH for me. As it is, I have broken the forum rules by verbally attacking a member, that too, a senior member, a moderator. I am usually a law abiding member, but this time, i followed my heart. So I declare that this is my last post on IAH. Mods may delete this post, but please let Nayak read it once, before you do so. Let him know that one guy, half his age and with less than quarter his experience, stood up for his pet and put his foot down. Good bye and thank you.
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