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TheChannaGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He Reply with quote

 If  Nayak  can  post  in  a  hybrid  thread  and  feel  "SORRY"  for  a  hybrid's  death,  I  can  make  an  exception  and  reply  in  this  hybrid  related  thread.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
Ok  in  that  case  i  prefer  to  euthanise  him.  may  be  experts  could've  tried  administering  an  injection  to  him  but  since  i  don't  possess  those  skills,  its  humane  to  not  experiment  on  a  dying  fish.  What  needs  to  be  done  to  euthinise  him  ?                

 
 Its  horrifying  news  brother  Shashank.  This  whole  mercy  killing  business  was  unfortunate.  I  have't  experienced  your  situation  before  and  hence  cannot  fathom  the  depth  of  your  grief.  But  know  that  I  share  it  with  you.   Sad  
   
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
I'd  also  want  to  know  what  went  so  drastically  wrong  in  my  tank  that  it  resulted  in  my  fish  dying  so  quickly  ?                

 
 What's  past  is  past,  but  as  a  close  follower  of  this  thread  right  from  it's  conception,  i'll  try  to  answer  your  questions  to  help  you  in  the  future.  Here,  I  place  my  personal  opinions  straight  forward  only  because  you  have  asked  for  that.
 
   
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
1.  First  the  female  who  died  on  sunday
       a.  What  was  the  infection  which  set-in  first  ?  Symptoms  like  blackened  face  and  loss  of  appetite.                

 
 We  are  hobbyists,  not  vets  and  didn't  conduct  any  laboratory  tests.  So  pinpointing  the  exact  causative  agent  is  impossible.  As  to  the  symptoms,  of  all  that  I  have  read  about  flowerhorn  diseases  in  the  last  two  months,  I  found  your  case  to  be  unique.  There  was  no  mention  of  only  the  face  turning  black  on  any  website  on  the  net.  I  think  that  the  experts  will  also  agree  on  that.  So  the  diagnosis  was  actually  difficult.  They  had  only  the  data  that  you  gave  and  their  experience  to  guide  them.  And  they  did  their  jobs  well  and  so  did  you.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
b.  Subsequently,  what  did  i  do  wrong  that  led  to  a  secondary  and  i  suppose  more  lethal  infection  to  set-in  ?                

 
 Only  God  knows  that.  I  personally  don't  think  that  it  had  anything  to  do  with  what  you  did.  You  tried  your  best.  I  am  not  sure  bout  this  secondary  infection  since  you  have  used  flagyl,  the  best  and  safest  antibiotic  that  I  have  known  and  used  for  my  fishes.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
c.  In  this  case,  what  could've  been  done  to  save  her  ?                

 
 You  already  did  all  that  you  could  do.  I  don't  know  about  the  wrong  dosing  and  IMO  that  wasn't  your  fault  at  all.  It  happens  with  all  of  us  and  so,  take  it  off  your  conscience.  As  far  as  I  have  read  and  know,  flagyl  is  a  very  common  drug  used  in  internal  parasitic  infections  and  has  been  used  at  higher  doses  by  other  hobbyists  successfully  with  no  side  effects.  I  myself  have  at  times  stuffed  an  entire  400mg  tablet  inside  a  feeder  and  fed  it  to  my  channas,  carps  and  catfish,  without  worrying  about  overdosing  and  they  were  fine.  So  I  don't  understand  this  kidney  damage  part  in  such  a  short  time.  Also,  if  you  google  it  up,  you'll  find  that  flagyl  is  not  only  an  antiprotozoal,  but  is  also  a  broad  spectrum  antibiotic  effective  in  gram  negative  and  anaerobic  infections.  
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
d.  Is  hemorhagic  septicemia  so  deadly  ?  Is  there  no  cure  for  this  infection  ?                

 
 Now  that's  a  big  term.  But  it  might  or  might  not  be  your  case.  Again,  we  are  talking  about  a  fish  here,  who  wasn't  run  through  lab  evaluation  and  not  seen  by   qualified  vet.  The  diagnoses  by  our  friends  were  mere  guesses  based  on  the  limited  data  available  and  based  on  their  experiences  and  knowledge.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
2.  The  now  dying  Male  fish:
         a.  What  went  wrong  in  his  case  ?  Why  did  he  stop  eating  and  get  the  infection.                

 
 Now  that  might  be  due  to  an  existing  silent  internal  infection,  but  precipitated  by  the  bitter  taste  of  flagyl.  or  it  might  be  due  to  progression  of  the  infection  or  it  might  be  due  to  stress.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
b.  Despite  administering  antibiotics,  why  did  he  fail  to  recover  ?                

 
 Antibiotics  aren't  magic  pills.  They  have  a  set  mechanism  of  action.  They  are  unlike  antiseptics  and  disinfectants,  which  act  immediately  on  contact.  They  have  a  set  course  and  have  to  be  given  for  a  specific  number  of  days  to  benefit  from  them.  If  you  donot  complete  the  course,  you  raise  the  resistance  in  the  causative  organism,  thus  worsening  the  infection.  Not  much  research  has  been  done  in  fish  regarding  dosage  of  antibiotics  and  we  follow  hearsay  when  using  them  in  the  hobby.  So  their  exact  action  on  individual  fish  is  unpredictable.  
 Now  some  hard  facts.  What  I  saw  in  your  case  was  that  you  lacked  patience  and  panicked  a  lot.  In  doing  so,  you  never  completed  the  course  of  any  single  antibiotic.  So  you  cannot  expect  a  cure.  Plus  you  mixed  up  a  lot  of  medications  in  a  very  short  time.  I  have  a  feeling  that  by  the  mixing  of  all  of  the  LFS  guy's,  Kastor's  and  Krash's  medications,  there  might  have  been  some  adverse  reaction  in  your  fish.  I  haven't  even  heard  of  most  of  these  drugs  being  used  in  aquarium  fish  before,  leave  alone  on  the  same  fish  and  at  the  same  time.  You  should  have  done  some  research  of  your  own  and  followed  only  one  course  and  stuck  to  it.  But  you  decided  to  step  on  all  stones  at  one  time.  Now  that's  dangerous.  I  saw  where  this  was  going  and  had  asked  you  to  stop  medicating,  but  you  were  all  charged.  I  might  appear  being  critical  at  a  bad  time,  but  if  you  need  an  unbiased  feedback,  here  it  is.  I  also  feel  that  you  should  have  gone  ahead  with  the  post  mortem  as  I  had  suggested.  Atleast  we  would  have  got  a  fighting  chance.  But  what's  done  is  done.  Don't  regret  that  and  move  ahead  with  a  strong  spirit.  Don't  give  up.  
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
c.  Is  aeromonas  bacterial  infection  so  deadly  that  it  can't  be  treated  ?                

 
 I  am  a  science  student  and  understand  that  you  need  a  microscope  fitted  to  your  eyes  to  see  what  microorganism  has  infected  a  tissue.  So  I  don't  know  how  brother  Krash  named  so  many  microbes  only  based  on  symptoms.  Maybe  he  is  a  vet  or  has  first  hand  experience  in  treating  many  infections  in  many  fish.  But  know  that  what  he  did  was  shortlist  the  possible  agents  causing  such  a  condition.  Nothing  for  sure.  So  aeromonas  or  not  is  a  big  question  again.
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
d.  What  was  my  role  in  accelerating  his  death  ?                

 
 You  are  no  trained  fish  handler.  You  are  just  a  normal  hobbyist  like  us.  So  you  are  prone  to  make  mistakes  and  should  not  feel  guilty  about  them.  we  improve  with  bad  experiences.  So  don't  ask  such  questions.  What  your  role  was,  to  keep  your  fish  happy  for  2  long  years.  And  know  that  that  is  a  long  period  of  time  by  any  standards.  So  know  that  you  were  a  good  keeper  and  will  always  be..
 
 
                                                 
shashank  wrote  (View  Post):                
a.  I've  always  thought  FH  were  strong  and  hardy  fish,  but  it  seems  like  i  was  wrong.  Is  their  resistance  less  when  compared  to  pure  breeds  ?
 b.  Will  naturally  occurring  cichlids  like  Oscars,  Green  terror,  Red  terror  etc.  be  more  resistant  and  have  a  better  chance  of  survival  ?
 c.  I  presume  my  skills  as  a  fish-keeper  are  not  upto  the  mark.  Was  my  only  mistake  overdose  of  flagyl,  or  was  there  other  places  where  i  went  wrong  ?                

 
 Why  this  question  on  Hybrids  out  of  thin  air?  A  fish  with  bad  immunity  wouldn't  have  lived  with  you  for  two  years.  Flowerhorns  are  as  healthy  as  any  other  fish.  Rather  they  are  hardier  than  most.  Your  skills  as  a  fishkeeper  are  great  and  are  improving  by  the  day.  Have  faith  in  yourself.  Just  don't  panic  and  try  everything  on  your  fish  at  the  same  time.  Stick  to  a  time-tested  medication  and  pray  for  them.  What  fish  you  will  keep  in  the  future  is  your  choice.  But  don't  judge  a  fish  by  the  purity  of  it's  breed.  Follow  your  heart.
 
 All  the  best  for  your  future.
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shashank
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He Reply with quote

 Thanks  for  the  feedback  Channaguy.  After  reading  it  though  i  was  hurt,  it  was  a  good  assessment  of  what  'I'  did  wrong.  The  main  reason  i  panicked  and  tried  various  medicines  was:
 
 a.  After  searching  for  symptoms  like  face  turning  black  and  finding  just  one  result  online,  i  panicked  as  there  was  no  idea  of  what  was  wrong  in  the  first  place  to  know  how  to  treat  it.  I  was  wrong  in  buying  meds  from  the  LFS  guy.  I  was  in  half-mind  when  i  was  buying  them,  so  shouldn't  have  continued  with  it.
 b.  The  reason  i  shifted  to  flagyl  was  because  of  the  poop  i  saw,  it  showed  classic  signs  of  hernia  and  flagyl  was  the  recommended  medicine.
 c.  Then  again,  i  discontinued  flagyl,  based  on  Krash's  recommendation  that  it  was  already  overdose.  My  female  FH  was  dead,  and  i  desperately  wanted  to  save  my  Male  FH.  In  that  confusion,  i  failed  to  pause  and  think  what  will  be  the  effect  of  SO  many  drugs  on  his  body  like  what  you  pointed  out.
 d.  I  did  all  in  my  capacity  to  save  them.  Whether  it  was  my  inexperience,  or  lack  of  understanding  of  the  symptoms,  or  my  lack  of  patience  to  try  out  one  drug  and  finish  the  dosage,  which  ultimately  caused  the  death  of  my  fish  i  do  not  know.  All  i  know  is  i'll  miss  them  both  terribly.
 
 RIP
 
 OT:  My  heart  was  always  set  on  the  mighty  Asian  Arowana  from  the  time  i  got  into  this  hobby,  but  i  don't  know  if  i'm  'skilled'  enough  to  keep  them.  Budget  and  space  for  a  6-footer  is  not  an  issue  Smile
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rocky2
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He Reply with quote

 sry  to  hear  abt   that  but  yes  i  also  agree  with  bro  channaguy
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TheChannaGuy
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Posts: 125
Location: Mumbai

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Flowerhorn face turns black, not eating since 5 days. He Reply with quote

 And  look  who  shows  up  during  the  funeral  of  two  hybrids  shedding  crocodile  tears.  
 
 
                                                 
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                
Shashank,
 
 I  am  sorry  for  your  loss.  I  truly  am.                

 
 Really?  Whats  the  need  of  these  false  condolences?  You  stayed  out  when  this  guy  was  in  need  of  help.  So  why  post  now?  Happy  that  two  hybrids  got  wasted   and  its  time  to  brainwash  the  owner's  mind?
 Reference:
 
                                                 
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                
But  naturally  being  a  newbie,  his  Hybrid  will  not  be  catered  to  well  and  will  get  into  problems.  That  is  where  we  the  serious  hobbyists  intervene  in  a  humane  way  for  the  sake  of  that  fish  and  slowly  try  to  wean  the  Hobbyist  away  from  Hybridkeeping  by  informing  him  the  perils  of  it.                

 
 What  wonderful  opportunism   Clapping   
 
 
                                                 
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                
The  primary  mistake  you  made  was  none  of  the  above,  but  forgetting  to  consult  your  six  friends.
 Who,  What,  Why,  Where,  When  and  How.
 
 I  went  through  your  whole  thread  and  never  saw  you  questioning  any  of  the  suggestion  or  asking  the  credentials  of  the  advisers.
 I  am  sure  none  of  them  would  have  minded  answering  you,  and  only  after  you  were  convinced  of  the  genuinity  you  could  have  proceeded  in  treating  your  fish.
 
 Best  of  luck  next  time.
 
 Regards,                

 
 Aren't  you  ashamed  of  yourself?  You  watched  this  guy's  fish  die.  You  and  other  "Authentic"  experts  watched  the  tamasha  all  these  days.  Then  when  the  expert  doctors  like  yourself  were  watching  the  fun,  a  couple  of  stupid,  useless  and  oversmart  quacks  tried  to  help  this  guy  out,  based  on  their  meagre  knowledge  and  pseudo-expertise.  You  doctors  felt  that  the  poor  guy  was  being  misguided,  but  instead  of  saying  so  at  the  right  time,  you  decided  to  conserve  your  energy  and  skills  for  the  eulogy.  Bravo.  Rock On   And  now,  while  you  deliver  it,  you  have  the  nerve  to  challenge  the  authenticity  of  those  who  volunteered  to  help.  Better  to  have  such  guys  who  at  least  try  to  help  us  out,  even  if  they  may  fail  at  times,  than  experts  like  you  guys  who  choose  to  ignore  our  pleas  when  we  need  help  desperately.  I  will  introduce  you  to  my  six  friends.
 1  Who  exactly  is  this  guy?  Nayak  or  Khalnayak
 2  What  was  he  doing  when  Shashank  asked  desperately  for  help?
 3  Why  did  he  not  guide  him  if  he  felt  that  he  was  being  misleaded?  
 4  Where  did  he  suddenly  appear  from  today  in  a  Hybrid  post?
 5  When  will  he  realize  that  hybrids  are  also  living  creatures,  that  they  have  equal  right  to  exist  like  other  living  things  and  their  taxonomical  status  is  of  no  concern  to  their  owner?
 6  How  does  he  live  with  himself?
 
 Have  fun  with  them  Nayak.  I  showed  my  maturity  when  I  replied  to  your  earlier  post  and  expected  the  same  from  you.  But  you  didn't  deserve  my  faith.  When  will  you  grow  up  Nayak?  Please  stop  your  dirty  tactics.  Learn  to  be  unbiased.  Remember  that  you  are  a  moderator,  not  a  dictator.  Know  that  when  someone  expresses  their  faith  in  you,  reciprocate  with  the  same.  Know  that  a  private  message  is  a  part  of  privileged  communication,  not  something  to  be  displayed  publicly.  That  only  highlights  how  egoistic  and  uncouthed  you  are.  You  are  not  fit  to  be  a  mod  Nayak.  If  you  have  even  an  ounce  of  shame  left,  step  down  or  correct  yourself  such  that  your  juniors  like  myself  will  respect  you.  look  at  how  your  seniors  have  run  these  forums  in  the  past  and  look  at  your  recent  activity.  You  learned  a  lot  in  this  hobby  since  you  got  proper  guidance  and  support  from  the  masters.  You  were  lucky.  But  everyone  isn't.  We  learn  by  trial  and  error  and  share  our  experiences  with  others  so  that  they  may  benefit.  We  do  that  since  no  senior  expert  is  here  to  guide  us  when  we  need  it.  But  you  can't  tolerate  that.  It's  your  forum  and  your  rules  after  all.  Run  it  as  you  wish,  but  give  this  due consideration,  if  you  find  it  in  you.  Know  tht  the  hobby  is  dynamic  and  while  we  preserve  the  good  old  customs,  we  must  welcome  the  new  trends.  Don't  decide  for  others  whether  the  new  trends  are  good  or  bad.  Let  them  decide  themselves.  Just  inform  them  of  the  pros  and  cons.  But  keep  your  mind  open.  If  the  change  is  for  the  good,  it  will  stay  on  and  if  it  is  for  that  bad,  it  will  perish  eventually.  Remember  that  'When  leaders  speak  for  change,  CHANGE  HAPPENS,  but  when  leaders  try  to  suppress  change,  SHEEEEEEET  HAPPENS'.  
 As  of  me,  I'm  through  with  people  like  you,  who  cross  other's  paths  try  to  trample  them.  You  have  spoiled  IAH  for  me.  As  it  is,  I  have  broken  the  forum  rules  by  verbally  attacking  a  member,  that  too,  a  senior  member,  a  moderator.  I  am  usually  a  law  abiding  member,  but  this  time,  i  followed  my  heart.  So  I  declare  that  this  is  my  last  post  on  IAH.  Mods  may  delete  this  post,  but  please  let  Nayak  read  it  once,  before  you  do  so.  Let  him  know  that  one  guy,  half  his  age  and  with  less  than  quarter  his  experience,  stood  up  for  his  pet  and  put  his  foot  down.  Good  bye  and  thank  you.  
 Yours  Sincerely,
 V.  Prachit
   Sad
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rasikanayak
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Location: Bangalore

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rants Reply with quote

 Bye.
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