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6Footer-Malawi cichlids.
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Nick993
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: Re: African Cichlids in a 6 footer.Update on page 3 Reply with quote

                                                   
Fishy_Cichlid  wrote  (View  Post):                
@  devansh95,  technically  speaking  you  are  right.  Bloat  or  specifically  Malawi  Bloat  is  a  bacterial/parasitic  (not  determined  as  to  exactly  which)  infection  which  often  afflicts  many  african  cichlid.  w.r.t.  Fronts/Gibbs,  non-technically  bloat  is  taken  akin  to  Float  since  its  specific  to  this  genus.  Sorry,  I  should  have  been  more  technical  &  specific,  I  meant  float.  This  is  a  problem  very  specific  to  L.Tang  Fronts/Gibbs  and  is  caused  by  air  entering  during  surface  feeding.
   http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/frontosa_floating.php  
 I  have  been  a  member  of  the  above  forums  you  mention,  in  &  out  and  have  also  interacted  with  Frank  Mueller  who  is  one  of  the  leading  authorities  on  African  Cyphos.  
 
 You  mention  filteration  quality.  How  would  you  define  that  ?  From  your  statement,  can  it  be  assumed  that  filteration  quantity  can  be  as  low  as  3-4X  provided  WC  done  once  or  even  twice  a  day  or  say  supposedly  a  very  effective  media  (wonder  what  that  might  exactly  be)?  WC  is  just  a  way  to  remove  NO3  i.e.  the  waste,  its  not  filteration,  sorry  to  disagree.  There  have  been  studies  conducted  on  the  minimum  time  required  by  Nitrobacteria  to  convert  NO2  to  NO3,  which  I  believ  is  around  16  mins  or  so.  I  have  been  part  of  that  discussion  too.  Surface  area  is  just  one  of  the  factor  affecting  filtration,  there  are  other  factors  too  needed  to  be  taken  into  account.  I  have  been  out  of  this  hobby  a  very  long  time  in  between  but  now  that  i  am  again  into  this  hobby,  I  read  a  lot  and  am  in  contact  with  a  lot  of  experts  in  this  field.  Fact  remains,  surface  area  &  flow  rate  need  to  be  optimised,  because  the  actual  time  lag  for  the  bacteria  to  act  fully  on  a  supplied  water  quantity  is  pretty  high.  Saying  that,  multiple  water  rotation  just  increases  your  contact  with  the  bacteria  more  often  with  higher  probability.  There  is  no  conclusive  evidence  of  certain  filter  media  working  better  than  the  other.  What  you  will  see  is  products  being  advertised  that  say  its  has  a  xxxx  porosity/retention  capacity  ......  thus  indirectly  implying  that  filtration  must  be  better.  But  no  real  tests  to  prove  it.  It  is  accepted  today  as  a  fact  that  L.Tangs  require  higher  filteration.  The  filtration  calculated  on  basis  of  pump  capacity  is  incorrect  since  it  is  empty  flow  capacity  at  a  predetermined  (which  is  usually  quite  low)  head.  Thus,  the  actual  capacity  with  the  media  installed  is  much  lower.  A  +10X  water  turnover  is  actually  around  6-7x  depending  on  the  brand,  quality,  water  quality,  stock  level  etc.  A  5-7x  as  suggested  by  you  actually  gives  2-3X  turnover.  Sorry,  I  am  unable  to  accept  that  figure  as  adequate  filteration.  I  also  never  advocated  to  the  adequacy  of  filteration  over  water  change.  I  have  just  mentioned  that  Tang  species  need  more  water  turnover  which  should  be  atleast  10X.  You  can  check  it  out  in  any  of  the  international  forums.  Filteration  refers  to  the  removal  of  solid  wastes  (mechanical)  and  also  &  more  importantly  conversion  of  food  &  fish  waste  release  to  NO3  (Bio-filteration),  which  is  removed  through  a  WC.  If  I  had  a  automated  system,  which  changed  water  continously,  would  I  then  require  no  filtration  ???
 
 The  topic  of  filteration  has  been  discussed  in  length  in  many  forums  with  actual  test  results,  so  I  dont  want  to  drag  my  feet  on  this  issue.  For  L.Tang  species,  +10X  filteration  is  desired  and  has  been  documented.
 
 Anyways,  thinks  we  diverted  from  the  topic  of  fish  selection  to  filtration.  But  a  good  discussion  anyways.                

 
 Reading  all  that  made  me  go   Jester  
 All  i  know  is  that  filtration  is  10x  the  volume  of  the  tank,  or  is  it  wrong  too?   Chuckle  
 
 
                                                 
Rohitskapoor  wrote  (View  Post):                

 nicely  done  Nick   Clapping  ,  good  start.  Still  place  for  improvement,  something  about  the  rocks  and  placement.
 
 Please  don't  mind  just  my  thought.
 
 Can  you  share  the  list  you  have  added.
 
 Hyderabad  Guys:  Where  can  i  find  substrate  similar  to  this  ?
 
 Regards,
 Rohit
                 

 
 Thanks  rohit,  what  arrangement  of  rocks  would  make  it  look  better?
 i  wanted  to  pile  to  it  up  more  and  making  it  a  hill  of  rocks,  but  my  stand  is  very  weak,i  have  to  get  a  new  one,  and  will  in  a  few  days,  so  i  tried  distributing  the  weight  all  over  the  tank..  Smile
 -I  have  added  around  55  kgs  of  Fine  gravel,i  got  it  from  a  mosaic  factory,  commonly  called  "chips".  it  was  washed  for  1  week  ,everyday  to  make  it  usable  for  aquarium.Its  very  tiny,  so  its  almost  sand  type.
 -Around  50-70kgs  or  more  of  rocks.
 -5  white  morphs(1  i  got  free,  doesnt  have  1  eye  Sad  )
 -2  of  some  unknown  type  :s  the  lfs  guy  told,  "butterfly  morph  chicklet"  Razz  it  has  yellow  color  on  its  head  and  around.other  parts  faint  yellow.
 -1-Blue  dolphin
 -1  firemouth
 2-Red  devils(i  guess  temperory  if  problem  arises)
 1-Green  terror(temperory  too)
 3x  common  pleco
 
 Tommorow  my  ordered  stock  will  arrive  and  it  wil  be  Filled  with  more  fishes  :)
 
 
                                                 
imrandayatar  wrote  (View  Post):                

 nice  setup.
                 

 
 Thanks!   Smile
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Rohitskapoor
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: Re: African Cichlids in a 6 footer.Update on page 3 Reply with quote

 wow  55  Kgs.  Yes  now  i  understand  about  the  distribution  of  the  rocks.  Hill  like  structure  would  be  more  appealing,  maybe  you  can  try  when  you  get  your  new  stand  :)
 
 but  anyways  good  work   Very Happy  
 
 Regards,
 Rohit
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Nick993
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: Re: African Cichlids in a 6 footer.Update on page 3 Reply with quote

 THanks  rohit,  i  was  jobless.  so  i  took  some  pics..  here  they  are..  some  fishies  were  too  fast  ,  i  couldnt  find  the  stand  of  the  cam  either.
 
 Devil
 
 GT
 
 electric  blue
 
 dolphin
 
 unknown
 
 firemouth
 
 
 FTS!
 
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sssram
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 Nice  photos.  Nice  to  see  the  Dolphin  and  firemouth  again.
 Just  one  bit  of  advice.  While  setting  up  rocks  be  careful  and  see  they  are  stable.  The  cichlids  will  dig  the  sand  and  if  the  rocks  are  not  stable  it  might  fall  and  damage  the  glass  bottom.
 
 Good  luck  and  best  wishes.
 
 sss  ram
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devansh95
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 @Fishy_Cichlid-  wow  m  impressed  by  the  "technical"  knowledge  you  just  shared,  though  i  would  like  you  to  mention  in  precis  points  as  i  could  interpret  all  the  data  well,  -
 1.  can  very  high  filtration  reduce  the  need  of  WC.??
 2.if  the  filter  has  many  chambers  &  media  will  it  not  help  in  the  filtration  more?
 3.why  so  much  hype  that  external  filters  like  eheim  brand  have  excellent  filtration?
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Nick993
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

                                                   
sssram  wrote  (View  Post):                
Nice  photos.  Nice  to  see  the  Dolphin  and  firemouth  again.
 Just  one  bit  of  advice.  While  setting  up  rocks  be  careful  and  see  they  are  stable.  The  cichlids  will  dig  the  sand  and  if  the  rocks  are  not  stable  it  might  fall  and  damage  the  glass  bottom.
 
 Good  luck  and  best  wishes.
 
 sss  ram                

 
 Thank  you..
 Even  if  the  rocks  fall  there  is  thick  bed  of  sand  under  it..so  that  glass  is  not  damaged  .
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Fishy_Cichlid
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 @  devansh95
 I  am  not  here  to  impress  anyone,  not  you  too  .....  sorry  for  your  interpretation  like  your  other  interpretations  in  this  thread.  I  just  gave  my  2  bits  on  the  post  posted,  &  not  to  mock  at  others.  Thinks,  you  post  something  and  then  ask  someone  else  questions  regarding  your  own  post.
 
 1.  You  mention  about  the  adequacy  of  WC  and  then  you  ask  me  if  very  high  filtration  reduce  the  need  of  WC.  I  had  replied  why  WC  is  required  ....  please  go  through  what  I  have  posted.  
 2.  Could  not  understand  what  you  meant  by  "more  filtering"  here.  Do  you  mean  better  quality  water  ?  Are  you  implying  that  a  tank  with  just  1  fish  having  a  huge  filter  with  lots  of  media  is  actually  filtering  more   Surprised   Surprised   I  am  not  here  to  educate  you  or  even  lecture  you  but  did  not  appreciate  your  mockery.  
 
 I  posted  a  reply  on  the  thread  with  genuine  information.  I  posted  the  word  'bloat'  instead  of  'float'  which  was  a  typological  error  and  you  mention  that  its  a  myth  that  surface  feeding  causes  bloat.  Nowhere,  has  it  been  ever  been  mentioned  that  Surface  feeding  causes  bloat,  so  where  is  the  myth  you  write  about.  Bloat  is  a  bacterial/parasitical  infection  affecting  all  african  cichlids.  Anyone,  knowing  about  fronts  &  Gibbs  would  have  understood  that  I  meant  Float  not  Bloat,  because  Float  affects  only  Fronts/Gibbs.
 
 3.  I  am  not  a  manufacturer  so  I  cant  reply  to  your  question.  I  use  filteration  and  media  as  suits  the  need  of  the  fish,  branded  or  diy  stuff.  Again,  I  doubt  if  in  my  post,  I  ever  mentioned  that  branded  filter  media  or  even  the  question  on  internal  vs  external  filter  was  adequate/inadequate.  Kindly  re-read  what  i  had  posted.
 
 Quote  :  What  you  will  see  is  products  being  advertised  that  say  its  has  a  xxxx  porosity/retention  capacity  ......  thus  indirectly  implying  that  filtration  must  be  better.  But  no  real  tests  to  prove  it.
 
 Never,  did  I  mention  that  its  "not  excellent"  as  you  interpreted  !!!!  "No  real  test  has  been  done  to  check  that  Pro-substrate  or  Matrix  or  Purigen  or  some  other  brand  is  better  than  the  other  or  even  better  than  just  a  dish  scrubbers  is  what  I  meant,  if  you  read  the  lines  carefully".  Kindly,  interpret  what  I  wrote  in  the  sense  it  has  been  written  instead  of  mocking  at  others.  
 
 BTW  can  you  explain  to  all  of  us  the  filteration  process  for  a  change.  
 You  mention  this  -  Quote  :  "@nick-  frontosa  will  be  perfect,  even  if  u  have  a  tight  budget  the  rate  of  burundi  frontosa  has  dropped  a  lot  u  can  get  3  1.5  incher  for  lowest  4  number.  "  I  never  knew  that  Cyphotilapia  sp.  north  aka  Burundi  collection  point  was  a  Frontosa  !!!!  I  was  aware  taxonomy  stating  that  there  is  just  one  Frontosa  species  -  The  seven  striped  Frontosa  (Kigoma).  Though  Tetsumi  had  his  own  doubts  and  has  stated  it,  but  he  has  accepted  the  fact  that  different  scientific  names  are  desired.  As  of  today,  in  the  absence  of  complete  evidence,  the  separate  group  Cyphotilapia  sp.  North  is  distinct  to  Frontosas  which  are  only  Kigomas.
 Quote  :  "if  u  dont  want  frontosa  go  for  malawis-  mbuna,  peacocks,  haps,  some  peacocks  look  stunning.  "  I  never  knew  Haps  were  from  L.Malawi.  Plz  check  -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplochromis
 http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-121524.html
 
 Let  me  quote  from  the  texts  in  the  above  links  -  "And  even  though  the  Haplochromis  does  not  come  from  Lake  Malawi,  they  actually  inhabit  Lake  Victoria,,,the  link  above  about  the  Haplochromis  explains  the  Hap  cichlids...."While  a  number  of  African  Rift  Valley  ciclids  are  certainly  very  close  relatives  of  H.  obliquidens,  the  type  species  of  the  present  genus,  it  is  not  very  clear  where  to  draw  the  boundary  of  Haplochromis  with  regard  to  its  relatives.  Still,  several  genera  are  nowadays  recognized  as  distinct  by  many  authors  and  scientific  databases  such  as  FishBase  (see  below);  in  particular  the  Haplochromini  from  Lake  Tanganyika  and  Lake  Malawi  are  usually  removed  form  Haplochromis.  "  is  what  the  Wiki  says.


Last edited by Fishy_Cichlid on Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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devansh95
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 @Fishy_Cichlid-  why  are  you  becoming  aggressive  &  when  did  i  mock  you?  show  me  my  post  where  i  mocked  you?  i  mean  whatever  i  post  i  as  really  impressed  by  your  knowledge  &  so  i  said  it,  i  never  mocked,  take  a  chill  pill  what  am  i  to  gain  out  of  this  argument?
 i  am  comparitively  new  in  this  hobby  -2  years-  &  that  is  why  i  asked  you  something  &  you  are  taking  it  as  mockery.
 i  hae  never  faced  bloat/float  &  i  know  what  does  not  causes  it-  neither  bloat  nor  float  can  be  caused  by  surface  feeding  fronts.
 
 but  now  m  getting  upset  by  your  strange  behaviour-  i  wont  explain  filtration  process-  fish  keeping  is  not  rocket  science  &  atleast  freshwater  aquariums  dont  require  one  to  read  a  lot.
 
 please  dont  quote  me  posting  to  nick-Quote  :  "@nick-  frontosa  will  be  perfect,  even  if  u  have  a  tight  budget  the  rate  of  burundi  frontosa  has  dropped  a  lot  u  can  get  3  1.5  incher  for  lowest  4  number.  "  
 i  may  say  anything  to  anyone  here  you  cannot  come  in  between  if  you  think  something  that  i  told  is  wrong  just  tell  it  to  the  post  owner.
 
 lastly  regarding  burundi  being  frontosa-  do  you  call  everyone  a  homo  sapiens  or  a  guy/gal  in  your  daily  life?  do  you  ask  for  H2O  or  water  ?  its  good  to  have   some  technicall  knowledge  but  bad  to  use  technicall  jargons  just  to  show  what  you  know,  i  will  always  call  burundi  frontosa  because  that  is  what  a  layman/beginner/lfs  guy  is  gonna  understand  i  dont  know  about  you  but  i  use  common  names.
 
 take  a  chill  pill,  there  is  more  to  life  than  arguing  about  fish.   Smile
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Fishy_Cichlid
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 I  really  hope  so.  No  offense  meant.
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devansh95
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 wow-  you  give  so  much  importance  to  my  posts  m  impressed,  are  you  a  gal?  we  might  end  up  a  couple.  Smile  
 peace.
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Fishy_Cichlid
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 Hahaha,  seems  like  you  are  paying  more  attention  to  the  ladies  and  perhaps  do  not  research  more  on  fish  before  replying  ......  will  do  you  good  instead.  Sorry,  to  disappoint  you  but  you  are  getting  everything  wrong  .......  time  you  took  a  break.   Chuckle   Chuckle
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Nick993
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 Why  do  people  kinda  start  fighting  in  my  threads  ?  Neutral
 i  never  got  a  reply  for  pics  Razz
 Common  guys!  no  one  is  super  guru,  everyone  learns  by  mistakes.  We  try  learning  about  the  fishes  by  its  behaviour   and  giving  it  the  habitat  similar  to  which  it  lives  in  .
 To  know  more,  we  gotta  turn  into  some  mermaids  and  start  living  with  them   Chuckle   Chuckle
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Mridul
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:55 am Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 Bro  Nick,  you'r  thread  has  started  some  serious  clash  of  knowledge......  Chuckle   Anyways,  The  setup  looks  really  good.  Please  try  to  remove  those  fake  plants  if  possible.  Instead  you  can  have  some  Anubis  to  replenish  you'r  planted  look.  And  also  try  having  a  black  background.  Just  my  two  cents  Thumb Up
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Rohitskapoor
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 very  nice  snaps  Nick,  1  eyed  fish...no  problem  its  good  luck  dude  Smile  have  fun  enjoy  your  fishes,  owner  happy  fishes  happy   Very Happy  
 
 cheers   Drinking  
 
 Regards,
 Rohit
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Kastor48252
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: Re: 6 Footer transformation,African cichlids.Update on page Reply with quote

 Sorry  for  replying  late  Nick.  Was  busy  preparing  for  my  South  Tamil  Nadu  trip,  scheduled  from  tomorrow.
 
 That  is  one  awesome  setup.  Must  have  been  a  lot  of  work.  Nice  to  see  your  setup  after  Rohit's  and  Mridul's.  You  guys  rock.  Rock On  
 
 All  fish  are  beautiful.  But  there  are  serious  compatibility  issues.  The  devil  and  terror  are  out  of  place.  There  will  be  bloodshed  one  day  if  these  aren't  separated.  Firemouths  may  still  coexist.  I  like  the  colours  on  that  devil.  But  why  is  he  so  stressed.  Have  his  fins  been  nipped?  He  deserves  his  own  tank.
 
 I  know  its  too  late  for  this,  but  if  you  ever  rearrange,  be  sure  to  put  a  2"  thick  sheet  of  good  grade  styrofoam  under  the  sand  and  rocks  to  prevent  accidents.  The  current  layer  of  sand  is  also  good  enough.  But  it  pays  to  have  a  backup.   Smile  
 
 Excited  to  see  the  updates  when  I  return.   Thumb Up
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