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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - My DIY Reef Aquarium Adventure
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My DIY Reef Aquarium Adventure
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Mr.Kelkar.....I  understand  the  90  mm  pipe  is  underwater.But  air  can  be  let  out  by  making  a  small  (or  maybe  two  or  three)pinhole  at  (slightly  above)water  level  in  the  display  tank.Air  can  escape  from  this  pinhole.....and  even  if  water  also  comes  out....it  will  be  minimal.Please  see  anothe  diagram  I  will  post.That  is  what  I  meant  by  leaving  the  90  mm  surge  pipe  "open"  in  "surge.JPG"  picture  .
 
 
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
psimhan  wrote:                
I  still  dont  understand  how  the  siphon  will  restart  on  its  own.  
 
 Theoretically  when  the  water  level  goes  above  the  level  of  the  U  bend,  the  water  should  start  to  overflow  and  flow  till  the  level  reaches  the  bottom.  
 
 But  on  the  other  hand  the  overflow  is  to  the  bottom  of  the  reef  tank,  and  there  will  be  a  really  large  gap  of  air  in  the  pipe  when  the  siphon  is  broken.
 Somehow  I  feel  that  the  pressure  in  the  surge  tank  will  not  be  sufficient  to  push  this  air  out  and  restart  the  siphon.  

 p.s  PM  me  if  you  want  me  to  put  up  the  new  pics,  Mr  K.                

 
     That  is  a  genuine  problem,which  I  intend  to  solve  with  pinholes  slightly  above  the  display  water  level.I  wonder  If  i  am  clear  in  my  explanations...
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rskelkar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Pinholes will not solve the problem. Reply with quote

 I  am  of  the  view  that  pinholes  will  not  solve  the  problem.  In  fact  it  might  create  problems.  Some  sites  on  the  web  talk  about  a  side  tube  of  smaller  bore  running  from  above  the  display  tank  to  a  level  just  above  the  siphon  bend.  The  other  end  of  this  small  tube  remains  open.  It  helps  in  bleading  the  air  and  when  the  open  end  gets  submerged,  the  siphon  reliably  starts.  Here  is  a  rough  sketch  of  the  arrangement.  Though  I  do  not  propose  to  begin  with  this  arrangement.  In  case  the  siphon  does  not  work  relibly  I  will  have  to  put  in  this  tube  of  smaller  diameter.  I  am  avoiding  this  tube  just  because  I  want  air  bubbles  in  the  surge.  In  case  I  use  the  small  tube  there  will  not  be  any  air  bubbles  in  the  surge.
 
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Mr.Kelkar,
 Yes  the  side  tube  would  serve  the  purpose.Does  it  necessarily  have  to  be  in  the  sintex  tank?would  it  not  be  enough  to  be  left  high  up  in  the  air,at  or  above  and  outside  the  max  level  of  sintex  surge  Tank?If  water  rushes  into  the  side  tube,air  will  not  be  expelled.
 What  problems  do  you  fore-see  with  pinholes  at  the  water  level(a  sincere  question,as  I  prefer  pinholes  for  its  simplicity  in  comparison  to  adding  another  side  tube)
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Surge Questions Reply with quote

                                                   
rskelkar  wrote:                
.  The  other  resource  is  a  UPS  5KW.  It  is  powered  by  grid  as  well  as  a  massive  solar  array.  This  UPS  power  will  be  used  for  everything  else  including  the  light  hoods.  Interesting!  Is  it  not?  Solar  energy  converted  to  electricity  and  electricity  back  to  broadspectrum  light  in  the  hood.  .                
 
 
 Sir  I  have  plenty  of  solar  energy,only  dont  know  how  to  harness  it!!  Smile  
 What  kind  of  "solar  array"  is  it?what  does  it  cost?where  is  it  available?Can  it  power  Metal  halide  Lighting  of  150  to  300  watts?What  broad  spectrum  lighting  do  you  plan  on  using(specifics  please)Please  give  me  details  and  save  me  thousands  in  electricity  bills!Thank  you  in  advance!
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rskelkar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Reiventing the wheel Reply with quote

 Sorry  folks.  It  seems  I  was  trying  to  reinvent  the  wheel.  Today  while  surfing  I  stumbled  upon  a  site.  This  kind  of  surge  device  is  called  "Carlson  Surge  Device".  It  is  being  used  in  Waikiki  Aquarium.
 Here  is  the  link.
 http://www.breedersregistry.org/Reprints/SeaScope/v13_sumr/surge.htm
 Dear  Murthy,
 The  higher  end  of  the  side  tube  has  to  higher  than  the  siphon  and  it  has  to  submerge  in  rising  water.  Water  acts  like  closing  a  valve.  The  beauty  is  there  are  no  moving  parts  and  no  maintenance.
 In  so  far  the  array  is  concerned,  it  is  massive  array  of  108  panels  each  panel  is  40W  (  40WX108=  4320W).  It  costs  a  fortune.  It  is  easily  available  in  India.  It  is  cheaper  to  pay  thousands  for  electricity  bills.  This  array  is  capable  of  powering  my  entire  house.  I  have  equipped  myself  just  in  case  Enron  power  becomes  more  expensive.
 The  details  of  the  members  of  the  light  hood,  I  will  provide  in  future  posts.
 Regards.
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rskelkar
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Viola! It works! Reply with quote

 Hi  folks.  The  surge  works  beutifully.  I  had  to  do  a  lot  of  experimentation.  The  pump  capacity  of  30lpm  was  highly  inadequate.  I  had  to  go  to  75  lpm  and  then  it  worked  beutifully.  I  have  a  nice  5"  surge  every  10  minutes.Thus  it  is  4500  lit  per  hour.  That  is  about  3  times  the  display  tank  capacity  every  hour.  Now  I  have  to  look  for  a  powerhead  or  a  pump  suitable  for  marine  with  a  4500  lit  per  hour  discharge  at  10'  head.  And  the  pump  is  going  to  run  for  24X7.  Any  suggestion?
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Madan
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Your  modified  Surge  System  design  is  simply  BRILLIANT.
 
   Clapping    Clapping    Thumbs Up
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Phew!
 Sorry  could  only  read  the  whole  thread  now  -  It  was  a  bit  difficult  to  post  earlier  as  the  whole  thread  is  divided  into  small  packets  of  info  and  had  to  put  them  all  togeather  to  see  the  whole  picture  clearly!
 Now  since  the  tank  is  filled  and  checked  for  the  surge's  discharge  I  would  like  to  put  forward  my  query  once  again
 What  is  the  intended  reef  set-up  -  DSB/BB  ?
 One  more  thing  -  When  the  surge  empties  in  the  display  tank  the  sprinkler  type  discharges  will  create  a  water  current  from  below  which  is  something  I  cannot  digest  from  the  very  first  day!
 From  what  little  knowledge  I  have  about  reefs  -  the  best  possible  effects  are  achieved  by  the  tide  and  ebb  flow  regulation.
 More  on  this  when  one  query  is  clear!
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rskelkar
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Thanks Madan Reply with quote

 Thanks  Madan.  I  was  dying  for  reply  on  the  thread.  It  is  really  a  pleasure  to  watch  the  surge.  I  am  thinking  of  using  2  pcs.  of  Eheim  1262  in  parallel.  They  will  give  me  discharge  of  6800  lit  per  hour.  What  do  you  think?
 Anyway  I  think  the  interest  of  folks  in  this  thread  is  dying  very  fast.  You  could  delete  it  when  you  want.  We  can  always  pm  each  other.
 I  have  learned  a  lot  in  the  experiment.  I  think  a  surge  device  is  a  must  for  the  size  of  reef  that  I  am  executing.  Simple  array  of  powerheads  will  not  do  the  job  for  this  size  of  reef.
 You  could  also  delete  the  thread  of  DIY  wet  &  dry.  Folks  are  not  interested  in  DIY.  One  can  buy  a  ready  to  go  Eheim.  Put  it  in  the  circuit  and  forget  about  every  thing  else.  I  can  also  probably  do  the  same.  Buy  one  EH2229  Eheim  Wet  &  Dry.  Buy  one  EH2080  Professional  3  Filter.  And  call  it  a  day.  But  that  will  probably  not  give  me  the  opportunity  to  learn.
 This  experimentation  on  surge  really  drove  me  crazy.  At  one  point  I  thought  that  reef  of  this  size  is  not  my  cup  of  coffee.  I  should  rather  drop  the  idea  of  reef  and  convert  this  display  tank  into  a  nice  planted  fresh  water  with  hundreds  of  fish  in  it.  But  one  of  the  local  IAH  members  persuaded  me  away  from  it.  He  said  I  was  trying  to  find  a  easy  way  out.  He  suggeted  that  now  that  I  have  put  in  so  many  efforts,  I  should  not  deviate.  It  was  an  encouragement.  I  am  sticking  to  my  plan.
 Wish  me  luck.
 @aquascapes,
 What  is  DSB/BB?  There  are  no  sprinkler  type  discharges.  Please  see  the  pictures.  The  surge  is  emptying  by  10  nos.    25  mm  pvc  orifaces.
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murthy
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks Madan Reply with quote

                                                   
rskelkar  wrote:                
Anyway  I  think  the  interest  of  folks  in  this  thread  is  dying  very  fast.  You  could  delete  it  when  you  want.  We  can  always  pm  each  other.
 You  could  also  delete  the  thread  of  DIY  wet  &  dry.  Folks  are  not  interested  in  DIY.  .                

 
 Please....no  deleting.....no  pm  conversations.I  owe  90%  of  my  present  hobby  to  posts  of  Madan  and  other  biggies  of  IAH.Dont  deny  us  access  to  further  progress  on  "DIY  reef  adventure".Us  "lesser"  folks  are  not  losing  interest,but  merely  digesting  an  overload  of  new  ideas.A  sincere  request.
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Madan
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Thanks Madan Reply with quote

                                                   
rskelkar  wrote:                
Anyway  I  think  the  interest  of  folks  in  this  thread  is  dying  very  fast.  You  could  delete  it  when  you  want.  We  can  always  pm  each  other.
 You  could  also  delete  the  thread  of  DIY  wet  &  dry.  Folks  are  not  interested  in  DIY.  .                

 
 Mr.  Kelkar,  No  discussion  ever  on  IAH  will  get  deleted.  It's  an  archive  for  information.  I  am  a  fan  of  DIY  and  will  not  delete  anything  from  that  too.
 
 As  for  interest  in  the  thread,  it  will  wax  and  wane,  that's  how  forums  work.
 Sometimes  people  do  not  check  on  IAH  for  a  day  or  two,  or  miss  out  o  a  post  or  do  not  have  time  to  reply,  these  things  are  normal.
 
 So  don't  worry  about  interest  in  the  thread,  keep  them  ideas  coming.
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Madan
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:38 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 2  x  Eheim  1262,  will  be  a  good  idea.
 
 With  these  you  could  reverse  flow  from  one  side  to  the  other  for  the  flood  and  ebb  tide  effect  if  you  wish.
 
 Aquascapes,  tide  water  not  only  reverses  direction  but  there  is  a  constant  upheaval  of  water  from  bottom  to  top  in  a  reef  due  to  wave  action.  The  surge  system  simulates  this  condition.  Also  in  a  tank  this  size  where  an  immense  quantity  of  live  rock  will  go  in,  the  surge  prevents  dead  areas  for  circulation,  well  atleast  minimises  it  to  a  very  large  extent.  Powerheads  placed  at  strategic  locations  will  be  a  pain.
 
 As  for  air  bubbles  being  entrained  in  the  surge  water  for  that  superb  surge  effect  that  you  see  in  large  public  aquaria  like  Underwater  World  at  Sentosa,  you  could  have  a  separate  airpump  discharging  around  the  surge  outlets.  
 
 Another  option  is  to  incorporate  a  small  venturi  in  the  surge  downflow  pipe  with  a  non  return  valve  which  will  activate  only  when  there  is  flow  in  the  pipe  and  draw  in  a  small  quantity  of  air  for  the  same  effect.
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
@aquascapes,  
 What  is  DSB/BB?  There  are  no  sprinkler  type  discharges.  Please  see  the  pictures.  The  surge  is  emptying  by  10  nos.  25  mm  pvc  orifaces.                

 DSB  =  deep  sand  bottom
 BB  =  bare  bottom
 a  DSB/plenum  system  looks  like  this
 
 suppose  you  go  with  the  plenum  than  the  orifaces  will  be  a  problem  to  accomodate  Sad  
 Secondly  I  agree  with  madan  on  
 
                                                 
Quote:                
Aquascapes,  tide  water  not  only  reverses  direction  but  there  is  a  constant  upheaval  of  water  from  bottom  to  top  in  a  reef  due  to  wave  action.  The  surge  system  simulates  this  condition.  Also  in  a  tank  this  size  where  an  immense  quantity  of  live  rock  will  go  in,  the  surge  prevents  dead  areas  for  circulation,  well  atleast  minimises  it  to  a  very  large  extent.  Powerheads  placed  at  strategic  locations  will  be  a  pain.  
 As  for  air  bubbles  being  entrained  in  the  surge  water  for  that  superb  surge  effect  that  you  see  in  large  public  aquaria  like  Underwater  World  at  Sentosa,  you  could  have  a  separate  airpump  discharging  around  the  surge  outlets.  
 Another  option  is  to  incorporate  a  small  venturi  in  the  surge  downflow  pipe  with  a  non  return  valve  which  will  activate  only  when  there  is  flow  in  the  pipe  and  draw  in  a  small  quantity  of  air  for  the  same  effect.                

 Exactly!  as  you  rightly  point  out  "an  immense  quantity  of  live  rock  will  go  in"  my  point  of  concern  is  the  stability  of  the  reef  structure  -  I  have  visited  many  public  aquariums  and  have  had  the  privilage  to  even  maintain  one!
 My  only  point  of  concern  is  when  a  surge  tank  (7'  above)  discharges  water  from  a  90mm  pipe  which  is  divided  into  10  orifaces  the  water  will  create  a  very  strong  current  for  approx.  10  mins.  which  should  be  utilised  in  the  best  possible  manner  and  not  just  let  it  de-stabilise  your  reef  structure.
 The  only  point  why  I  was  not  active  on  this  thread  is  because  Madan  being  a  marine  engineer  is  the  right  person  to  talk  on  the  fluid  management  or  in  our  case  water  dynamics  -  and  he  did  a  good  job  of  guiding  Mr.  Kelkar    Clapping.  Now  since  the  plumbing  is  sorted  out  we  have  another  problem  staring  at  our  faces  -  the  stability  of  the  reef  structure!
 I  don't  understand  how  the  reef  structure  will  remain  stable  with  such  a  lot  of  water  current.
 The  underwater  world  that  Madan  refers  to  has  an  artificial  reef  and  all  the  corals  and  reef  structure  is  made  artificially  which  ensures  a  strong/secure  bond  with  the  base.
 
                                                 
Quote:                
Anyway  I  think  the  interest  of  folks  in  this  thread  is  dying  very  fast.  You  could  delete  it  when  you  want.  We  can  always  pm  each  other.                

 Mr.  Kelkar  please  take  heart!
 It  as  Madan  rightly  says  "Not  everyday  that  someone  comes  up  with  an  idea"  so  will  take  sometime  for  the  folks  (like  me)  to  digest  what  exactly  is  going  on!
 Don't  worry  you  are  doing  the  right  thing  -  if  you  can  read  the  thread  'Poor  man's  reef'  You  will  realise  that  I'm  myself  very  much  of  a  DIY  person  and  will  help  and  support  you  with  whatever  little  experience  and  knowledge  I  have  on  the  subject.
 The  only  point  I  have  not  answered  on  your  other  thread  is  because  I  want  to  know  what  exactly  do  you  have  in  mind  for  your  reef  and  likewise  I  can  systematically  answer  your  queries.
 Till  now  we  are  only  able  to  discuss  the  water  management  and  the  plumbing  which  turned  out  to  be  a  fantastic  idea  -  now  let  us  discuss  about  the  reef  itself!
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sudhirvr
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Please  do  not  delete  this  thread.    Cheer    We  are  enjoying  this  as  much  as  you  are.    Cheer
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