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murthy
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 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Mr.Kelkar.....I understand the 90 mm pipe is underwater.But air can be let out by making a small (or maybe two or three)pinhole at (slightly above)water level in the display tank.Air can escape from this pinhole.....and even if water also comes out....it will be minimal.Please see anothe diagram I will post.That is what I meant by leaving the 90 mm surge pipe "open" in "surge.JPG" picture .
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murthy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| psimhan wrote:
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I still dont understand how the siphon will restart on its own.
Theoretically when the water level goes above the level of the U bend, the water should start to overflow and flow till the level reaches the bottom.
But on the other hand the overflow is to the bottom of the reef tank, and there will be a really large gap of air in the pipe when the siphon is broken.
Somehow I feel that the pressure in the surge tank will not be sufficient to push this air out and restart the siphon.
p.s PM me if you want me to put up the new pics, Mr K.
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That is a genuine problem,which I intend to solve with pinholes slightly above the display water level.I wonder If i am clear in my explanations... |
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rskelkar
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Joined: Apr 24, 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Pinholes will not solve the problem. |
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I am of the view that pinholes will not solve the problem. In fact it might create problems. Some sites on the web talk about a side tube of smaller bore running from above the display tank to a level just above the siphon bend. The other end of this small tube remains open. It helps in bleading the air and when the open end gets submerged, the siphon reliably starts. Here is a rough sketch of the arrangement. Though I do not propose to begin with this arrangement. In case the siphon does not work relibly I will have to put in this tube of smaller diameter. I am avoiding this tube just because I want air bubbles in the surge. In case I use the small tube there will not be any air bubbles in the surge.
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murthy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Mr.Kelkar,
Yes the side tube would serve the purpose.Does it necessarily have to be in the sintex tank?would it not be enough to be left high up in the air,at or above and outside the max level of sintex surge Tank?If water rushes into the side tube,air will not be expelled.
What problems do you fore-see with pinholes at the water level(a sincere question,as I prefer pinholes for its simplicity in comparison to adding another side tube) |
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murthy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Surge Questions |
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| rskelkar wrote:
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. The other resource is a UPS 5KW. It is powered by grid as well as a massive solar array. This UPS power will be used for everything else including the light hoods. Interesting! Is it not? Solar energy converted to electricity and electricity back to broadspectrum light in the hood. .
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Sir I have plenty of solar energy,only dont know how to harness it!! 
What kind of "solar array" is it?what does it cost?where is it available?Can it power Metal halide Lighting of 150 to 300 watts?What broad spectrum lighting do you plan on using(specifics please)Please give me details and save me thousands in electricity bills!Thank you in advance! |
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rskelkar
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Joined: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Pune
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Reiventing the wheel |
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Sorry folks. It seems I was trying to reinvent the wheel. Today while surfing I stumbled upon a site. This kind of surge device is called "Carlson Surge Device". It is being used in Waikiki Aquarium.
Here is the link.
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Reprints/SeaScope/v13_sumr/surge.htm
Dear Murthy,
The higher end of the side tube has to higher than the siphon and it has to submerge in rising water. Water acts like closing a valve. The beauty is there are no moving parts and no maintenance.
In so far the array is concerned, it is massive array of 108 panels each panel is 40W ( 40WX108= 4320W). It costs a fortune. It is easily available in India. It is cheaper to pay thousands for electricity bills. This array is capable of powering my entire house. I have equipped myself just in case Enron power becomes more expensive.
The details of the members of the light hood, I will provide in future posts.
Regards. |
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rskelkar
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Viola! It works! |
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| Hi folks. The surge works beutifully. I had to do a lot of experimentation. The pump capacity of 30lpm was highly inadequate. I had to go to 75 lpm and then it worked beutifully. I have a nice 5" surge every 10 minutes.Thus it is 4500 lit per hour. That is about 3 times the display tank capacity every hour. Now I have to look for a powerhead or a pump suitable for marine with a 4500 lit per hour discharge at 10' head. And the pump is going to run for 24X7. Any suggestion? |
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Madan
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Your modified Surge System design is simply BRILLIANT.
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aquascapes
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Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Phew!
Sorry could only read the whole thread now - It was a bit difficult to post earlier as the whole thread is divided into small packets of info and had to put them all togeather to see the whole picture clearly!
Now since the tank is filled and checked for the surge's discharge I would like to put forward my query once again
What is the intended reef set-up - DSB/BB ?
One more thing - When the surge empties in the display tank the sprinkler type discharges will create a water current from below which is something I cannot digest from the very first day!
From what little knowledge I have about reefs - the best possible effects are achieved by the tide and ebb flow regulation.
More on this when one query is clear! |
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rskelkar
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Thanks Madan |
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Thanks Madan. I was dying for reply on the thread. It is really a pleasure to watch the surge. I am thinking of using 2 pcs. of Eheim 1262 in parallel. They will give me discharge of 6800 lit per hour. What do you think?
Anyway I think the interest of folks in this thread is dying very fast. You could delete it when you want. We can always pm each other.
I have learned a lot in the experiment. I think a surge device is a must for the size of reef that I am executing. Simple array of powerheads will not do the job for this size of reef.
You could also delete the thread of DIY wet & dry. Folks are not interested in DIY. One can buy a ready to go Eheim. Put it in the circuit and forget about every thing else. I can also probably do the same. Buy one EH2229 Eheim Wet & Dry. Buy one EH2080 Professional 3 Filter. And call it a day. But that will probably not give me the opportunity to learn.
This experimentation on surge really drove me crazy. At one point I thought that reef of this size is not my cup of coffee. I should rather drop the idea of reef and convert this display tank into a nice planted fresh water with hundreds of fish in it. But one of the local IAH members persuaded me away from it. He said I was trying to find a easy way out. He suggeted that now that I have put in so many efforts, I should not deviate. It was an encouragement. I am sticking to my plan.
Wish me luck.
@aquascapes,
What is DSB/BB? There are no sprinkler type discharges. Please see the pictures. The surge is emptying by 10 nos. 25 mm pvc orifaces. |
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murthy
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks Madan |
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| rskelkar wrote:
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Anyway I think the interest of folks in this thread is dying very fast. You could delete it when you want. We can always pm each other.
You could also delete the thread of DIY wet & dry. Folks are not interested in DIY. .
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Please....no deleting.....no pm conversations.I owe 90% of my present hobby to posts of Madan and other biggies of IAH.Dont deny us access to further progress on "DIY reef adventure".Us "lesser" folks are not losing interest,but merely digesting an overload of new ideas.A sincere request. |
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Madan
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Thanks Madan |
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| rskelkar wrote:
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Anyway I think the interest of folks in this thread is dying very fast. You could delete it when you want. We can always pm each other.
You could also delete the thread of DIY wet & dry. Folks are not interested in DIY. .
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Mr. Kelkar, No discussion ever on IAH will get deleted. It's an archive for information. I am a fan of DIY and will not delete anything from that too.
As for interest in the thread, it will wax and wane, that's how forums work.
Sometimes people do not check on IAH for a day or two, or miss out o a post or do not have time to reply, these things are normal.
So don't worry about interest in the thread, keep them ideas coming. |
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Madan
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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2 x Eheim 1262, will be a good idea.
With these you could reverse flow from one side to the other for the flood and ebb tide effect if you wish.
Aquascapes, tide water not only reverses direction but there is a constant upheaval of water from bottom to top in a reef due to wave action. The surge system simulates this condition. Also in a tank this size where an immense quantity of live rock will go in, the surge prevents dead areas for circulation, well atleast minimises it to a very large extent. Powerheads placed at strategic locations will be a pain.
As for air bubbles being entrained in the surge water for that superb surge effect that you see in large public aquaria like Underwater World at Sentosa, you could have a separate airpump discharging around the surge outlets.
Another option is to incorporate a small venturi in the surge downflow pipe with a non return valve which will activate only when there is flow in the pipe and draw in a small quantity of air for the same effect. |
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aquascapes
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Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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@aquascapes,
What is DSB/BB? There are no sprinkler type discharges. Please see the pictures. The surge is emptying by 10 nos. 25 mm pvc orifaces.
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DSB = deep sand bottom
BB = bare bottom
a DSB/plenum system looks like this
suppose you go with the plenum than the orifaces will be a problem to accomodate 
Secondly I agree with madan on
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Aquascapes, tide water not only reverses direction but there is a constant upheaval of water from bottom to top in a reef due to wave action. The surge system simulates this condition. Also in a tank this size where an immense quantity of live rock will go in, the surge prevents dead areas for circulation, well atleast minimises it to a very large extent. Powerheads placed at strategic locations will be a pain.
As for air bubbles being entrained in the surge water for that superb surge effect that you see in large public aquaria like Underwater World at Sentosa, you could have a separate airpump discharging around the surge outlets.
Another option is to incorporate a small venturi in the surge downflow pipe with a non return valve which will activate only when there is flow in the pipe and draw in a small quantity of air for the same effect.
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Exactly! as you rightly point out "an immense quantity of live rock will go in" my point of concern is the stability of the reef structure - I have visited many public aquariums and have had the privilage to even maintain one!
My only point of concern is when a surge tank (7' above) discharges water from a 90mm pipe which is divided into 10 orifaces the water will create a very strong current for approx. 10 mins. which should be utilised in the best possible manner and not just let it de-stabilise your reef structure.
The only point why I was not active on this thread is because Madan being a marine engineer is the right person to talk on the fluid management or in our case water dynamics - and he did a good job of guiding Mr. Kelkar . Now since the plumbing is sorted out we have another problem staring at our faces - the stability of the reef structure!
I don't understand how the reef structure will remain stable with such a lot of water current.
The underwater world that Madan refers to has an artificial reef and all the corals and reef structure is made artificially which ensures a strong/secure bond with the base.
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Anyway I think the interest of folks in this thread is dying very fast. You could delete it when you want. We can always pm each other.
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Mr. Kelkar please take heart!
It as Madan rightly says "Not everyday that someone comes up with an idea" so will take sometime for the folks (like me) to digest what exactly is going on!
Don't worry you are doing the right thing - if you can read the thread 'Poor man's reef' You will realise that I'm myself very much of a DIY person and will help and support you with whatever little experience and knowledge I have on the subject.
The only point I have not answered on your other thread is because I want to know what exactly do you have in mind for your reef and likewise I can systematically answer your queries.
Till now we are only able to discuss the water management and the plumbing which turned out to be a fantastic idea - now let us discuss about the reef itself! |
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sudhirvr
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Joined: Feb 23, 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Please do not delete this thread.  We are enjoying this as much as you are. |
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