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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Beware of red frontosas
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Beware of red frontosas
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Sami
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote  (View  Post):                
I've  seen  some  of  these  in  pics  in  CichlidForum.com  
 I've  read  an  article  say,  they  are  mutated  by  force  feeding,  not  sure  of  how  but  they  do  exist.                

 
 Let  me  say  at  the  cost  of  repetition  that  some  excessively  brown  juvees  are  touted  as  reds.Their  may  be  mutation/dyeing/crossbreeding  etc.but  to  this  date  nothing  hasn  been  acheived  in  terms  of  a  certain  strain  with  a  determined  pedigree  or  process.As  on  this  date  im  sure  that  a  person  who  pays  for  them  pays  for  diappointing  himself.
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angad
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 yup  theyr  not  BRIGHT  RED  or  anything...Theyr  reddish-brown  or  rust-red...   Smile
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toomanyfish
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 does  anyone  have  any  pics?
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Lawrenze
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 Guess  they  will  look  something  like  in  the  link  below:
 http://www.worldcichlids.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=12679.0;prev_next=next
 Rgds
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

                                                   
crazyfishy  wrote  (View  Post):                
Guess  they  will  look  something  like  in  the  link  below:
 http://www.worldcichlids.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=12679.0;prev_next=next
 Rgds                

 
 Did  you  see  the  dicussion  it  said  "most  of  them  are  offered  as  juvees  and  most  of  them  have  their  servers  delinked  after  sometime  which  is  odd".
 
 I  have  also  surfed  and  i  found  throughout  the  globe  these  are  offered  on  a  discount  after  which  they  vanish.So  this  cannot  be   a  true  strain.
 Did  u  see  the  rust  red  one  ie  the  I  unusual  colourd  photo.I  once  bought  4  female  burrundis  from  a  dealer  in  Madurai  who  kept  them  with  their  colony  in  a  messy  concrete  tank(  They  were  fed  with  bread  loafs  when  i  saw  them.The  females  i  bought  were  almost  the  colour  of  the  I  one.  after  coming  to  my  tank  they  improved  and  all  obtained  their  usual  colour  with  good  water  and  conditions.
 
 Therefore  whther  theseare  mutants.dyed,crossbreds  ,sick  ones,  the  truth  about  them  is  that  they  are  not  bred  to  design  but  touted  as  reds  once  they  are  seen  with  this  colour.Hobbyists  should  steer  clear  of  them.
 UPDATE-GOLDEN  FRONTOSAS  ARE  DOING  ROUNDS  &  DISAPPEARING  THE  SAME  WAY  AS  THE  REDS.
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Lawrenze
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 These  again  could  be  due  to  any  of  the  reasons  that  you  have  mentioned,  there  were  two  fronts  in  my  colony  of  10  which  always  stayed  brownish  and  i  do  remember  posting  it  somewhere  here  and  was  told  that  it  could  be  due  to  stress  but,  they  stayed  that  way  till  i  gave  them  away  Smile  btw,  white  fronts  or  albino  fronts  do  come  up  for  auction  once  in  a  bluemoon  is  what  i've  read  in  some  forums...would  like  to  see  a  pic  of  one  of  those  Very Happy  
 Rgds
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

                                                   
crazyfishy  wrote  (View  Post):                
These  again  could  be  due  to  any  of  the  reasons  that  you  have  mentioned,  there  were  two  fronts  in  my  colony  of  10  which  always  stayed  brownish  and  i  do  remember  posting  it  somewhere  here  and  was  told  that  it  could  be  due  to  stress  but,  they  stayed  that  way  till  i  gave  them  away  Smile  btw,  white  fronts  or  albino  fronts  do  come  up  for  auction  once  in  a  bluemoon  is  what  i've  read  in  some  forums...would  like  to  see  a  pic  of  one  of  those  Very Happy  
 Rgds                

 
 pl  note  that  i  have  enumerated  allt5he  variants  and  varieties  in  my  article  stated  first.There  are  no  recognised  hybrids.Reds,golden,Albino,panda  and  some  more  varieties  are  touted  once  in  a  while.All  these  are  some  sort  of  unfortunate  genetic  freaks  or  fakes  nomenclatured  to  suit  their  appearence.All  of  them  are  sold  and  forgotten.Hence  better  to  be  awake  to  realities.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 I  agree  Smile  but,  correct  me  if  i'm  wrong...albinos  do  occur  in  nature  then  why  would  we  call  them  hybrids?  i've  had  albino  brichardis  before  Thumb Up  
 Rgds
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 I  agree  with  lawrence,  albinos  do  occur  naturally!  But,  the  basic  question  here  is  how  desirable  should  a  mutant  be?  Are  we  not  responsible  hobbyists?  Should  we  not  refrain  from  buying  something  so  unnatural?  Why  are  we  taking  interest  in  the  mutants?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

                                                   
crazyfishy  wrote  (View  Post):                
I  agree  Smile  but,  correct  me  if  i'm  wrong...albinos  do  occur  in  nature  then  why  would  we  call  them  hybrids?  i've  had  albino  brichardis  before  Thumb Up  
 Rgds                

 
 albinos  that  exist  in  nature  cannot  be  called  hybrids.see  in  some  species  albinos  occur  in  random.Then  albinos  will  produce  normal  ones  which  at  some  times  may  produce  albinos.In  this  way  albinos  occor  in  almost  all  species  .U  can  call  only  albinos  of  the  said  species  they  are  neither  subspecies  or  hybrids.There  are  albino  crows,buffalos.deer,etc.I  had  a  pedigree  germanshepherd   long  ago  which  was  full  white.she  gave  birth  to  only  normal  colored  pups  even  when  mated  with  a  white  male.
 
 There  are  some  cases  were  albinos  live  in  one  community  and  produce  only  albinos.Take  the  royal  bengal  tiger  for  example.These  may  be  subspecies.
 
 there  are  cases  were  we  breed  selectively  or  through  crossing  to  produce  species  with  albino  traits.U  may  call  them  hybrids.  Albino  oscars.severums,guppies  etc
 
 in  cyphptilapias  i  agree  that  there  may  be  a  few  stray  albinos.but  no   definite  hybrids  have  been  declared  by  anyone
 
 IN  Nature  any  sort  of  freaks  may  be  produced.Here  is  an  interesting  episode.
 
 HOBBIYISTS  HAVE  STUMBLED  ON  REAL  WILDCAUGHT  GIBBEROSAS  WHICH  HAVE  7  BARS  ON  ONE  SIDE  AND  6  ON  ANOTHER.(  the  hobbyists  have  agreed  and  decided  to  seclude  them  and  not  to  allow  them  to  breed)
 HE  ARGUEMENT  THAT  IS  GOING  ON  IS  THAT  IT  MAY  BE  POSSIBLE  THAT  ALL  THE  CYPHOS  INCLUDING  THE  7  BARRED  kIGOMAS  ANF  THEIR  CLAN  SPRUNG  FROM  THE  SAME  ANCESTOR.
 
 Or  the  collectors  from  kigoma  who  travelled  to  Zaire  areas  carrying  some  specimens  left  a  few  kigomas  there.
 In  nature  anything  can  happen  in  cyphos  but  in  our  shops  all  these  mutants/freaks  are  chance  products  that  are  capitalised  in  a  scam.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

                                                   
aquascapes  wrote  (View  Post):                
I  agree  with  lawrence,  albinos  do  occur  naturally!  But,  the  basic  question  here  is  how  desirable  should  a  mutant  be?  Are  we  not  responsible  hobbyists?  Should  we  not  refrain  from  buying  something  so  unnatural?  Why  are  we  taking  interest  in  the  mutants?                

 
 i  think  a  natural  mutant  will  be  dealt  with  by  nature  itself  and  in  that  set  up  they  may  not  pose  a  threat  to  that  breed.But  handling  mutants  in  an  artificial  set  up  may  certainly  proove  to  be  destructive.I  agrree  that  we  should  be  responsible.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 Yes  Sir  Thumb Up  Man  made  fish  are  a  definite  NO  NO  for  me  Chuckle  
 Rgds
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 Hi,  let  me  contribute  my  two  bit.
 Mutants  &  Hybrids  are  not  same.
 MUTANTS:   An  offsping  inherits  his  charactersits  form  his  parents,  half  from  his  father  &  half  from  his  mother.  For  each  trait  he  receives  genes  from  his  parents,there  is  a  dominant  &  one  rescessive  character.  In  some  traits  dominant  trait  from  father  may  prevail  and  in  some  case  those  from  his  mother  will  prevail.  That  is  the  reason  why  children  resemble  in  some  ways  to  their  parents,  they  may  sometimes  resemble  even  their  grandparents  or  great  grand  parents.
 In  case  of  mutants  a  new  genetic  character  may  arise  due  to  a  sudden  change  in  DNA  structure,  this  will  give  rise  to  a  charcterstic  which  was  not  present  in  the  parents.
 albinos,  having  extra  limbs  etc.  are  such  examples
 
 Hybrids:  Hybrids  are  offspings  of  two  different  animals  or  plants,  the  resulting  offsping  will  carry  traits  of  both  species.  Liger,  zeedonk  are  such  examples
 
 Albinos  are  not  hybrids,  they  are  mutants.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 Im  not  educated  in  science  ,i  belong  to  atotally  different  discipline  and  orientation  and  profession.But  let  me  say  what  i  know  
 
 Hybrids  can  be  of  the  following  types.
 
 interbreeding  between  different  species  of  same  genus-interspecific
 
 interbreeding  between  different  subspecies  of  same  species-intraspecific
 
 interbreeding  between  different  genera-intergeneric
 
 interbreeding  between  groups  classified  into  different  families-interfamilial
 
 hybridisation  also  has  other  forms-
 
 
         )  crossing  different  population  of  same  species
 

 
 
 b)  selectivebreeding/artificial  selection
 
 line  breeding-  inbreeding  are  also  facets  of  this  type
 
 in  this  process  u  select  specimens  among  a  pure  breed  which  exhibit  certain  recessive/mutant  or  other  traits  and  breed  them  selectivelyor  inbreed  till  only  those  traits  are  exhibitted.
 
 For  ex  Albinos  may  be  mutants  found  in  the  wild.But  how  do  u  mass  produce  them  .By  breeding  among  albinos/mutants  only  to  such  an  extent  u  create  a  strain  of  albinos.This  can  also  be  brought  under  the  definition  of  hybridisation.
 
 Hence  albinos  may  be  either  mutants  or  hybrid.  
 
 
 RGDS
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Beware of red frontosas Reply with quote

 In  continuation  of  my  above  last  post  i  will  like  to  say  that  if  somone  says  that  he  had  developed  a  new  strain  from  mutants  then  that  has  to  be  declared  and  that  group/strain  has  to  become  distinct  producing  only  similar  offsprings.
 
 But  in  the  case  of  redfrontosas  u  hardly  know  what  they  are  talking  about.Sudden  declarations  are  made.Small  photos  are  displayed.  mostly  they  are  sold  on  a  discount  and  they  disappear.Another  batch  surfaces  later  at  someother  part  of  the  world  and  follows  the  same  faitaccompli.Therefore  this  is  only  a  scam  basedon  necessity/oppurtunity.You  get  a  batch  of  frontosas  that  are  brown,  u  display  a  board  "reds  for  sale".
 
   There  is  no  use  buying  a  fish  which  is  not  found   naturally  and  even  iu  u  take  it  as  a  mutant  /hybrid  they  are  not  regularly  bred.They  are  at  best   freaks  thrown  out  once  in  a  while  due  to  a  variety  of  reasons.So  much  for  the  red,golden.panda,  albiono,moasaic  and  other  frontosas  touted  in  the  markets.All  are  burrundis  with  odd   colours  &  paterns.
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