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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Beginers Blues
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Beginers Blues
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naju
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:01 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Sir  I  have  a  blue  and  a  green  medicine.I  think  you  were  referring  to  the  green  one  in  your  earlier  posting.Its  a  good  learning  about  bio-load.But  still  sir  as  I  was  thinking  what  could  have  gone  wrong...I'am  able  to  understand  a  possible  mistake  from  me.Day-before-yesterday  I  changed  the  water.I'm  not  in  the  habbit  of  changing  the  full  water  but  do  only  50%.But  the  shop  fellow  said  its  good  to  remove  everything  including  the  gravel  as  a  lot  of  debris  do  accumulate  below.So  I  removed  everything  and  gave  it  a  thorough  wash.(I  took  care  not  to  use  any  soap..etc,  but  only  scrubbed  it  nicely).That  day  it  was  raining  well  and  my  tap  water  was  quite  cold.  I  overlooked  this  point  which  could  have  resulted  in  this.  I  added  about  15  litres  of  old  water  back  so  as  to  preserve  the  good  bacteria.Iwill  do  the  90%  water  changes  from  tomorrow  and  also  the  green  medicine  which  says  its  for  tailrot  and  white  spot.
 Thankyou
 naju
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Madan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:18 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 You  did  everything  wrong.
 
 1.  Added  too  many  fish  at  the  same  time.
 2.  Listened  to  the  shop  fellow  and  washed  out  your  gravel  -  The  gravel  is  a  very  good  medium  for  bacterial  colonisation  by  washing  it  you  threw  a  lot  of  bacteria  down  the  drain.
 3.  After  washing  the  Gravel  you  added  all  your  fish  in  -  Very  few  bacteria,  less  than  what  was  there  to  start  that  is  before  you  added  the  gouramis  -  and  you  added  a  lot  of  fish  back.
 4.  Waste  accumulation  and  Ammonia  spike.  Burns  your  fish's  gills  and  leads  to  an  outbreak  of  ich  and  frayed  edges  of  fins.
 5.  It's  good  you  added  15%  of  the  water  back  though.
 6.  Now  you'll  have  to  wait  4-5  weeks  for  your  aquarium  to  settle  down.  If  you  can  move  your  gouramis  to  another  tank  or  bucket  do  so  and  treat  them  separately.  Then  slowly  introduce  them  back  to  the  aquarium.
 
 Next  time  don't  listen  to  the  shop  guys.
 
 By  the  way  you  never  mentioned  anything  about  filtration.  What  kind  of  filtration  do  you  have?
 
 And  
 
 Please  leave  out  the  "Dear/Respected  etc.,  Sir"  bit.  We  are  all  learning  here  and  it  is  embarrasing.    Smile
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naju
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Yes  !  Now  i  realise  all  the  mistakes  I  have  made.I  may  loose  but  shall  never  loose  this  lesson....sorry...I  dont  have  any  filters  installed....the  present  situation  is  that  I  still  have  all  I  had  yesterday  but  all  are  sick  with  very  little  movement.Lets  see  how  best  I  can  cope  with  no  heater  nor  filter...I'am  planning  to  do  the  90%  water  changes  from  today....I  dont  have  a  thermometer  also  but  have  to  rely  on  my  senses  to  add  a  little  bit  of  warm  water....by  the  by  ...should  we  not  clean  all  the  gravel....if  not  how  else  is  all  the  brown  powdery  stuff  underneath  removed.....and  how  come  that  shop  fellow  said  he  does  it  every  3  weeks.And  he  has  very  little  gravel  and  there  are  hell  a  lot  of  fish  per  litre  in  his  tanks.(please  dont  laugh  but  i  just  got  a  idea....the  common  money  plant  that  we  keep  in  cooldrink/liquor  bottles  indoor  can  be  used  in  the  aquarium  also.The  plant  roots  are  submerged  in  the  gravel  and  the  shoot  can  be  left  outside  the  hood..the  roots  can  absorb  all  the  nitra(i)tes  and  keep  the  atmosphere  clean....may  be  more  water  loss  due  to  plant  transpiration...can  be  topped-up?)
 naju
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ravi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:21 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Please  check  the  net  for  nitrogen  cycle.  This  will  explain  why  you  have  this  problem.
 
 I  suggest  you  ATLEAST  install  a  sponge  filter  ASAP.  This  is  a  passive  device  with  a  large  sponge  with  a  pipe  in  the  middle.  You  will  have  to  insert  a  air  line  &  stone  into  the  center  pipe.  When  air  bubbles  thro  the  pipe,  it  will  create  a  water  circulation  thro  the  sponge.  This  will  act  as  both  filter  &  medium  for  beneficial  bacteria.  Please  note  that  bacteria  uses  oxygen  when  converting  ammonia  &  so  required  constant  (24  hours)  water  circulation.  Keep  your  airpump  on  24  hours.  
 
 If  you  have  no  plants,  you  may  install  an  under  gravel  filter.
 
 If  you  have  proper  aquatic  plants  (not  money  plant  !),  all  these  problems  will  not  exist  !
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Madan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:01 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 The  brown  powdery  stuff  will  slowly  be  eaten  up  by  the  bacteria  and  converted  to  nitrates.  You  remove  the  nitrates  when  you  do  a  partial  water  change.
 
 Once  a  month  vaccum  your  gravel.  How  ?
 
 Cut  off  a  300  ml  coke  bottle  about  2  inches  from  the  bottom  (  wider  end  )  and  cut  3  or  4  1  cm  wide  vertical  slots  spaced  equally  around  the  circumference  and  about  3  cm  high  at  this  end.  Connect  a  3/4  inch  hose  pipe  to  the  mouth  (  narrow  end  ),  siphon  out  the  water  to  your  garden  or  down  the  drain,  by  keeping  the  cut  (wider)  end  in  the  gravel.  
 
 Voila  !!!!!  you  have  made  yourself  a  Gravel  Vac.  Saved  you  Rs.300/-  already  and  you  enjoyed  a  coke  too  (minus  the  pesticide  ofcourse  !!)
 
 The  mulm  (  brown  powdery  stuff  )  will  be  siphoned  out  but  your  gravel  will  be  intact.  Do  half  the  tank  every  week  so  that  in  2  weeks  you  cover  the  whole  tank.
 
 Yes,  install  a  Sponge  filter  at  least  immediately.
 
 If  you  have  a  tank  chock  a  block  with  plants  you  don't  need  to  touch  the  gravel  at  all.
 
 Why  does  the  shop  guy,  clean  out  all  his  gravel  frequently  ?
 
 The  moron  refused  to  register  at  IAH  I  suppose  .
 
 By  the  way  are  you  planning  a  trip  to  Bangalore  or  Chennai  in  the  near  future  ?  :twisted:
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ravi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:35 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Madan,  do  you  think  that  the  "Brown  Powdery  Stuff"  might  be  diatoms  which  where  released  when  he  washed  the  gravel  ?  Mulm  is  not  powdery  !
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naju
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:16 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Oh  sorry  for  calling  it  brown  powdery  stuff...mulm  may  be  the  right  word...it  is  brown  and  slimy  (velvety)
  Thanks  for  the  tip  on  vacuming  the  bottom.I  shall  prepare  one  immediatly  with  a  pet  bottle.But  I  will  be  needing  it  immediatly....
  Yes  I  have  gone  through  the  FAQ  on  nitrogen  cycle  but  unfortunately  thought  that  adding  some  old  aquarium  water  back  will  be  enough.  In  the  abscense  of  a  filter  where  will  all  the  good  bacteria  colony  be?In  the  gravel  mainly?Can  siphoning  remove  the  mulm  even  from  fine  gravel  which  is  advised  for  keeping  plants.
  Sorry  no  plans  to  neither  Madras  nor  Banglore  but  may  be  visiting  Hyderabad  this  month  end.  Any  body  you  can  suggest  from  Hyderabad?  In  fact  I  was  about  to  ask  for  this.  Mine  is  a  3x1x1  glass  tank  ,  coarse  gravel  (10mm  may  be)  and  you  know  my  fish  load.  Just  recently  I  added  a  flourascent  light  20W  as  I'm  interested  in  plants.  Only  an  ordinary  tube...here  I  could  not  get  'Trulite'  as  advised.  I  presently  have  3  small  plants  (grass  like  looking  which  were  just  surviving  due  to  very  low  light)  one  bottle  of  blue  medicine  and  one  bottle  of  green  medicine.  {By  the  By  is  this  blue  medicine  by  any  chance  is  methylene  blue...because  just  a  while  ago  I  was  reading  an  FAQ  on  diseases  were  I  came  across  that  this  when  added  to  tank  directly  will  kill  plants  and  trash  the  biological  filter.  what  ever  this  means....(my  AqShop  fellow  said  it  is  good  for  fish  health  and  had  added  it  to  the  bag  and  gave  me  and  I  have  transeferred  it  to  my  tank.)}  It  can  become  quite  cold  here  and  hence  I  may  need  a  heater  and  was  advised  RENA  100W....about  filter  what  would  be  the  best  suggestion  (with  approx  price  range  also  please)  as  now  we  feel  it  is  also  necessary...a  thermometer  may  be....and  please  give  some  common/regular  plant  names  which  are  hardy  and  easy  to  maintain....and  any  friend  or  reputed  aquarist  at  Hyd  whoom  I  can  approach......and  what  emergency  medications  which  needs  to  be  kept....
 
  Yes  I  had  done  my  first  80%  water  change  and  now  the  kissing  gauramis  are  moving  more  freely  than  before  but  I  feel  things  are  still  very  serious.  The  tiger  barbs  have  now  started  behaving  differently  and  the  rosybarbs  allways  hide  under  the  rock  bridge.  Yes  I'am  leaving  the  air  stone  on.  Crossing  my  fingers  and  hoping  all  will  be  suddenly  normal  tomorrow.
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ravi
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:54 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
naju  wrote:                

 In  the  absense  of  a  filter  where  will  all  the  good  bacteria  colony  be?  In  the  gravel  mainly  ?  Can  siphoning  remove  the  mulm  even  from  fine  gravel  which  is  advised  for  keeping  plants.
                 

 
 Bacteria  colony  will  primarily  exist  on  gravel  or  filter  medium  or  such  porus  matter  with  very  high  surface  area.  They  also  exist  in  very  small  quantity  in  water  column.  However,  on  gravel  or  filter  medium,  there  will  be  1000s  of  times  more  per  cm2  compare  to  water  column.  That  is  why  gravel  and  filter  medium  are  so  important.  A  plain  tank  without  any  gravel  will  have  sever  Ammonia,  Nitrate  or  Nitrite  spikes.  However,  when  gravel  is  added,  levels  of  these  chemicals  will  be  substantially  lower.
 
 
                                                 
naju  wrote:                

 Mine  is  a  3x1x1  glass  tank  ,  coarse  gravel  (10mm  may  be)  and  you  know  my  fish  load.  Just  recently  I  added  a  flourascent  light  20W  as  I'm  interested  in  plants.  Only  an  ordinary  tube...here  I  could  not  get  'Trulite'  as  advised.  I  presently  have  3  small  plants  (grass  like  looking  which  were  just  surviving  due  to  very  low  light)
                 

 
 10mm  gravel  is  too  large  for  plant  growth.  Try  2-3  mm  gravel.  To  grow  plants,  you  need  to  check  on  plant  requirements  &  plan  accordingly.  For  example,  slow  growing  plants  may  require  less  light  &  nutrients.  Fast  growing  plants  will  require  intense  lighting,  high  levels  of  nutrients  &  co2  dosing.  Your  3  x  1  x  1  tank  may  also  not  be  viable.  I  would  suggest  atleast  3  x  1.5  x  1.5.
 
 
                                                 
naju  wrote:                

 one  bottle  of  blue  medicine  and  one  bottle  of  green  medicine.  {By  the  By  is  this  blue  medicine  by  any  chance  is  methylene  blue...because  just  a  while  ago  I  was  reading  an  FAQ  on  diseases  were  I  came  across  that  this  when  added  to  tank  directly  will  kill  plants  and  trash  the  biological  filter.  what  ever  this  means....(my  AqShop  fellow  said  it  is  good  for  fish  health  and  had  added  it  to  the  bag  and  gave  me  and  I  have  transeferred  it  to  my  tank.)}
                 

 
 Please  get  yourself  a  small  (1.5  x  1  x  1)  glass  tank  which  will  be  your  hospital  tank.  Use  this  tank  for  treating  sick  fish.  Medicine  should  not  be  introduced  into  the  main  tank.
 
 
                                                 
naju  wrote:                

 about  filter  what  would  be  the  best  suggestion  (with  approx  price  range  also  please)
                 

 
 Eheim  make,  canister  filter  is  best.  German  made,  expensive.  2213  model  may  cost  about  3500/-.  But  this  size  will  be  too  large  for  your  tank.
 
 
                                                 
naju  wrote:                

 Yes  I  had  done  my  first  80%  water  change  and  now  the  kissing  gauramis  are  moving  more  freely  than  before  but  I  feel  things  are  still  very  serious.  The  tiger  barbs  have  now  started  behaving  differently  and  the  rosybarbs  allways  hide  under  the  rock  bridge.
                 

 
 If  Tigar  barbs  are  swimming  with  head  down  &  tail  up  (vertically)  then  this  is  an  indication  of  nitrite  spike.  Changing  water  is  a  short  term  measure.  Please  correct  the  cause  not  the  symtom.
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naju
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:49 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Yes  !  The  tiger  barbs  are  with  headdown  and  tailup  but  I  have  observed  them  occassionally  in  that  position  for  short  intervals  before  also  but  had  not  given  any  problems....now  the  single  guppy  seems  to  be  the  best  of  all  not  bothering  at  all.
 
 Quite  long  ago  ..  nearly  10  yrs  back  I  had  aquarium  for  3  years...I  learned  things  very  hard  way  from  my  goldfish  dying  every  week  in  my  chocolate  bottle  jars  to  having  them  for  nearly  more  than  2  years.I  then  had  a  2x1x1  with  plants  and  nearly  8  fish  mostly  rosy/silver  barbs.I  dont  remember  the  names  of  plants..something  like  cobomba  and  amazonsword..and  there  was  only  a  60W  incandescent  bulb  and  an  aerator  and  mosiac  chips  as  gravel.All  the  rockbridges  and  structures  were  green  with  algae,but  never  had  any  problems....and  I  didn't  change  the  water  in  nearly  11  months..only  topping  up  the  evoporation..that  is  the  longest  I  had  achieved.I  gained  a  few  tips  from  an  uncle  from  HYD.The  trick  I  believed  is  to  strike  a  balance  between  the  fish  excreta  and  plants  which  is  mutual..the  plants  use  fish  excretions  and  give  enough  oxygen  for  the  fish.Green  algae  in  tank  was  believed  to  be  beneficial  to  the  fish  and  I  used  to  clean  only  the  front  glass  with  a  blade.I  had  never  actually  cleaned  the  entire  tank  the  foolish  way  I  did  now.I  never  knew  about  nitrates  cycle  etc.During  repainting  the  house  I  lost  the  full  population.And  again  now  one  of  my  uncles  (different)from  same  HYD  had  this  piece  for  a  few  months  and  ultimately  gave  it  to  me.And  now  I  feel  I  need  to  understand  some  of  the  basic  fundementals  thouroughly  to  be  successful.Well!!!  I  think  I  should  look  into  alternatives  for  a  filter.
 
 Well...the  toll  is  only  one  till  now  but  I  would  like  to  point  an  another  strange  thing..the  blue  gouramis  have  devoloped  a  dark  spot  on  the  head  where  you  can  see  some  hair  like  growth  also  on  one.
 
 Could  a  plastic  plant  have  worsened  the  situation.
 
 The  kissing  gauramis  are  mostly  resting  on  the  gravel  now  accassionally  darting  up  for  a  gulp.
 -naju
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Madan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:22 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hey  why  don't  you  surf  the  net  a  bit  and  find  which  is  right,  rather  than  contradicting  us  with  what  your  LFS  guy  said  or  your  uncles  said.
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naju
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:08 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 No  NO  No  I'm  not  contradicting  but  was  only  blabbering  my  old  experience  .  Anyway  the  toll  had  risen  very  much  now.I  lost  both  the  kissing  gauramis  ,  and  the  tiger  barbs  also.Did  the  second  90%  water  change  last  evening.
 Now  Something  Interesting  or  rather  an  argument.My  boy  who  was  away  from  the  begining  of  this  episode  returned  yesterday  and  I  explained  what  had  happened  and  what  could  have  prevented  this.He  posed  two  question  .  (I  had  posetd  the  same  in  a-s-k  also)
 1.He  has  seen  the  Aq.shop  gentleman  who  used  to  come  for  this  tank  maintenence  clean  the  whole  tank.(Till  a  few  months  ago  this  was  at  HYD  in  one  of  my  uncles  house)May  be  he  is  foolish.But  he  did  it.  My  boy  assures  some  other  medicine/liquid  other  than  dechlorinater  was  used.  Are  there  any  triggering  medicines  for  Nitrogen  cycle  and  if  there  how  efficient  are  they?Can  they  be  used  in  such  circumstances.
 2.  The  general  fish  load  in  any  tank  in  an  Aq.shop  appeares  very  much  high  than  the  norms.How  do  they  deal  with  nitrogen?Most  of  theese  tanks  have  no  gravel  nor  any  filters.What  are  their  means/techniques  and  are  they  not  suitable  small  time  hobbyist?
 3.  Looking  into  my  remote  location  can  you  advice  any  medicines/stuff  that  will  come  handy  in  emergencies.
 
 In  case  none  of  the  current  population  survives  then  should  I  clean/sterilise  my  tank  to  start  afresh  again.
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Madan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:12 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Why  don't  you  try  to  understand....
 
 Do  all  the  fish  that  are  there  in  a  LFS  in  their  tanks  remain  there  for  ever?
 
 How  many  die  per  day?
 How  many  are  sold  per  day?
 How  many  are  added  per  day?
 Why  do  fish  cost  so  much  when  you  buy  them  ?
 
 Please  answer  all  these  questions.
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 This  has  been  one  loooong  discussion....thought  I'd  add  my  bit  as  well.
 Naju,  in  case  all  ur  fish  die,  take  a  deep  breath....sit  back,  relax  for  some  time.
 >read  about  fish  keeping...books  or  internet
 >invest  in  a  sponge/undergravel  filter.(sponge  is  better)  DIY  if  possible.
 >if  the  temp  in  ur  area  does  not  drop  below  20c  then  dont  bother  about  a  heater.
 >assume  that  ur  LFS  person  knows  little  or  nothing  about  fish  keeping
 >Set  up  ur  tank  with  filter/aerator,  fill  water,  wait  for  a  week  
 >  while  waiting,  read  some  more
 >buy  ONE  pair  of  small  fish...guppies/platies  are  good.
 >feed  fish  sparingly,  do  not  add  fish  for  the  next  month.
 >perform  25%  water  changes  weekly
 >If  all  goes  well,  your  fish  will  have  probably  produced  babies  by  months  end  Very Happy  
 >remove  the  babies(if  any  to  another  container)
 >  by  now  u  should  have  figured  out  what  type  of  tank  setup  u  want  from  all  ur  reading
 >go  about  adding  fiah  to  the  tank  gradually....a  pair  a  week  or  6  fish  per  fortnight  is  good.
 >  for  the  first  six  months,  aim  for  1"  of  fish/5  liters  of  water  in  the  tank.
 
 hope  this  helps.
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naju
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:17 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Thanks  for  all  your  patience  with  dealing  with  this.I  have  gone  through  some  more  of  this  newtanksyndrome  articles  from  the  net.
 Comin  back  to  my  tank  I  have  lost  both  the  3"  kissing  gauramis  ,  all  my  tiger  barbs.I'ma  lucky  to  have  still  my  3  nos  1'  gauramis  and  my  two  rosy  barbs.They  seem  quite  healthy  but  are  scratching  against  decorations.other  than  that  they  appear  ok.I'am  still  continuing  80%  water  change  every  alternate  day.But  I  feel  I  shoul  decreease  it.I  shall  wait  for  minimum  a  month  and  than  think  what  I  can  add  to  it.
 Thank  you
 Naju
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naju
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:00 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Well  sir  !
 Iam  atlast  stable....I  could  save  3  gauramis(2  blue  1  yellow)  and  2  rosy  barbs...and  meanwhile  had  done  some  reading  about  nitrogen  cycle  as  well  .The  ammonia  to  nitrites  to  less  toxic  nitrates  which  need  to  be  removed  through  partial  water  changes.The  only  way  you  can  speed  things  up  is  use  old  gravel/filter  media  from  an  established  tank.At  any  time  ..however  old/established  the  tank  is  adding  new  fish  is  invariably  going  to  cause  an  upset  as  the  amount  of  bacteria  available  is  proportional  to  the  wastes  generated  and  hence  add  only  2  fish  per  week  to  see  the  imbalance  is  as  negligible  as  possible.Well.....Where  do  plants  come  into  this  picture...some  people  have  also  said  that  plants  compete  with  good  bacteria  in  converting/consuming  ammonia.Then  having  plants  is  a  definite  plus  point  even  in  waste  management.  please  clarify..........I  have  also  come  across  statements  like  'if  you  have  plants  you  dont  need  filters'...........how?.........
 Appearence  of  algae  on  the  glass  and  decorations  is  a  sure  sign  that  the  cycle  is  completed  and  tank  is  stable......now  I  have  added  4  small  male  guppy  sized  fish  to  my  tank(couldn't  get  the  name)pale  yellow  bottom  and  black/white  horizontal  stripes  on  top  half  ,  about  a  week  back  and  all  are  doing  fine.  I  also  added  some  Vallisnaria  plants....brought  some  fine  sized  gravel  and  placed  them  only  at  the  region  where  I  planted  and  left  the  rest  with  the  coarse  ones.
 An  another  addition  is  a  filter.....(earlier  in  this  forum  only  I  was  adviced  to  atleast  get  a  sponge  filter  at  the  earliest)...  this  one  is  a  Dolphin  make  F800  model  internal  power  filter  that  says  4W  and  300  L/H  with  coarse  sponge  like  medium  and  a  small  activated  carbon  box  also  in  the  path.  The  LFS  guy  adviced  this  for  my  3'x1'x1'  tank  size...but  ...it  surely  does  create  a  current  in  the  tank  and  will  angels  that  I'am  planning  as  next  addition  like  this....I  keep  the  filter  on  from  8am  to  9pm  and  switch  to  the  regular  air  stone  for  the  night  so  that  my  fish  sleep  well....can  this  be  done......I  should  see  if  after  some  time  the  filter  gets  partially  clogged  then  if  the  flow  comes  down  to  a  comfortable  level......earlier  and  even  now  the  algae  color  is  brown  only....11W  CFL  earlier  20W  FL  now
 thank  you
 naju
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