| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
toomanyfish
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Oct 11, 2005
Posts: 2439
Location: Poona
Status: Offline
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
 |
|
| ya the concentration is about that much..am using 4 400 mg tablets for a 180 litre tank |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
The fish are doing fine?
deepesh |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquascapes
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
First things first,
Hamza, generally discuss keepers and breeders have pampered and over pampered their fish to such an extent that somewhere down the line they tend to loose their natural immunity. The earlier pampering was tolerable because fish were wild caught and precious - now since the fish has bred in captivity for generations I think it is time to rule out the bare bottom tanks and provide a more natural environment to the fish.
secondly, the gunshot treatment generally works if you can grossy identify the origin of the infection or infestation.
thirdly you should understand that the air powered sponge filter in a bare bottom discus tank where you tend to change a major part of the water everyday hardly is of any use so it does not matter even if you take it off as you really are not looking at the bio-filteration properties of the filter and it does little for the mechanical filtration. The external canister filter should be turned off during medication IF it has a chemical filter media like activated charcoal or something that adsorbs chemicals. Other wise you could safely keep it running as mechanical filtration will not filter out dissolved medication.
@deepesh,
a small stupid question -
does metrogyl (IV) and the tabs for oral consumption have the same effect when used in the water column for treating fish? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Not a 'stupid' question at all.
IV and tablet metrogyl have the same effect. I had recommended IV metrogyl just for its convenience.
IV metrogyl is much costlier than tablet metrogyl. But its actual cost is quite affordable. At least if you have a reasonably small tank, not one the of the humongous ones.
Tablets tend to have bulking agents like lactose as well as binding agents. But since they are fit for human consumption I presume they are ok for fish too.
Intravenous solutions can contain preservatives but IV metrogyl does not.
One peculiar thing - one dose tablet metrogyl is 400 mg, one dose IV metrogyl is 500 mg.
deepesh |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
| Double post... sorry!! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquascapes
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Ok, so you mean that the fluid can be administered directly into the water column? See the whole point of asking this question is I was always of the idea that both the forms of the same medication are made to target the infection from a different angle: I mean the IV gets running into the blood stream from the very moment it is injected and targets the infection instantly, where as the orally consumed medication needs to be digested first to start acting (of course both enter the blood stream one directly and the other in-directly) now using the medication in the water column is a totally different ball game - so I beg your expert opinion on this.
I understand that metrogyl might be an expception but what about other medications?
BTW I don't use metrogyl - I use (rather used to use as I dont have discus with me as of now) Dependal-M is that fine? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
toomanyfish
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Oct 11, 2005
Posts: 2439
Location: Poona
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
| well just an update..there is no real change in the concerned fish..ya the pores on her head have vanished but still not eating |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Hi aquascapes
Sorry for the late reply.
You are right IV and oral medications are a little different. IV medications do have an immediate effect as compared to the oral formulation - which of course we desire in case the patient is seriously ill. The surprise is that as far as antibiotics are concerned both oral as well as intravenous formulations are equally efficacious - most studies do not show any difference in end results.
Some antibiotics are available only as IV formulations because they get digested by us - therefore oral forms are useless.
Albendazole and its ilk are only oral as they are not soluble enough in water to make an IV formulation. Doctors would love to have an IV formulation.
As far as dosing the water column is concerned it makes little difference whether it is IV or oral, as the drug is the same. Hamza was dosing the water column.
I personally feel that dosing the water is rather unrefined - for the lack of a better word and for the lack of better options available. I feel that it is best to deliver the drug to the fish rather than to the water. The same as it is better to medicate the human rather than the air he breathes.
Tetracyclines and erythromycin are drugs that bind to proteins - so if you dose these to the water they get concentrated in the fish and the bacteria because they are main proteins in the tank. The amount in the fish will be many times that in the water.
Metrogyl is freely soluble in water with minimal binding to proteins. So the concentration in the fish is the same as in the water.
Albendazole dosing to the water would be the least effective way of delivery as it is not much soluble in water. The particles are micronized for effective delivery to the worm. This also means that the particles are so small that on dispersing in the water (instead of dissolving) it does look as if the drug has indeed dissolved in the water. Is that a totally ineffective way of treating with albendazole? I think even albendazole in the water has some effect on fish parasites - fish can die of albendazole toxicity so we know that it is acting. And in some human diseases where there are worms in the brain or in the tissues (as opposed to worms in the gut) oral albendazole somehow seems to control and cure the disease over a period of few months intake (as opposed to a single days dose to cure intestinal worms).
I would still maintain that albendazole is best dosed in the feed. Maybe other drugs too.
deepesh |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquascapes
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Thank you Deepesh for the very interesting and informative answer!
well, I must say that my experience with albendazole is not a very pleasent one so I will never ever lay my hands on it even mebendazole for that matter was harsh so I have since discontinued the use (may be as you say I had dosed the water column that might be the reason but anyways, I am not trying it again!)
I really side by your opinion but, a hobbyist who's fish is starving and not accepting food has little choice as they say in Hindi "Marta kya nahi karta" meaning the one who is dying will try out every trick in the book to survive!!
@Hamza,
buddy if the skin shows improvement and the healing process is on - he should be hungry pretty soon! All the best! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Madan
Admin
Joined: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 7087
Location: Bengaluru, India
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Deepesh since you brought in Erythromycin in the discussion, Hamza I'll veer a bit off topic here. Not deepesh's fault!
Erythromycin is effective against Cyanobacteria aka Blue Green Algae, is this because Cyanobacteria is a bacteria with a protein, and moving on to gram positive and gram negative bacteria, Erythromycin does not affect nitryfying bacteria and targets cyanobacteria among others for the same reason ? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Umm...
Erythromycin does bind to proteins but its action is by stopping protein synthesis. This is because it binds specifically to the ribosome (a complex of protiens and RNA) of bacteria - most of the time gram positive bacteria.
Erythromycin has little effect on those gram negative bacteria that concern doctors - these are the gram negative bacilli that infect humans. Therefore the blanket statement that erythromycin does not affect gram negative bacilli. Erythromycin does affect some gram negatives but only a few species - dependent on its ability to bind to the ribosome.
We humans got lucky with erythromycin. Basically a large portion of human pathogens are gram positive. And all gram positives are closely related to each other in terms of their basic physiology. Including cyanobacteria.
Actually gram positives belong to a super-goup which includes cyanobacteria and many others, all sharing closely related ribosomes.
I suspect that it is not totally safe for our nitrifying bacteria. After your question I did a web search and it seems that erythromycin does affect some strains of nitrosomonas and nitrobacter. Whether that will totally upset the aquarium nitrogen cycle is a moot point as there are many species of bacteria doing that stuff, some of which are naturally resistant to erythromycin as their ribosomes are not affected by erythromycin.
deepesh
PS: Aquascapes you are right - if the fish is not eating then water column dosing is the way to go - no other option. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deepesh
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 962
Location: chandigarh
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
Again a late reply aquascapes. Sorry for that!
Dependal M contains metronidazole. It also contains furazolidone - which is a broad spectrum antibiotic as well as antiprotozoal. It acts against amoebae and some flagellates - including hexamita.
deepesh |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
discusboy
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 1217
Location: Mumbai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
hi hamza,
Good to hear that ..
Now try to add some Badam leaves in your tank .. they will keep the PH lower and will enable faster recovery...
And Very good inputs there Deepesh...Truly very informative...  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venki25
Regular Poster on IAH
Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 409
Location: Chennai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
| Very good inputs. Been really informative. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aquascapes
Committed Member of IAH
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat
Status: Offline
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm |
|
|
| deepesh wrote (View Post):
|
Again a late reply aquascapes. Sorry for that!
Dependal M contains metronidazole. It also contains furazolidone - which is a broad spectrum antibiotic as well as antiprotozoal. It acts against amoebae and some flagellates - including hexamita.
deepesh
|
Hamza, are you reading this?
now do you understand why I was suggesting Dependal-M instead of Metrogyl? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Guest(s): 1,006
![[News Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_news.png "News Feed"){kind=small}
![[Forums Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_forums.png "Forums Feed"){kind=small}
![[Downloads Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_down.png "Downloads Feed"){kind=small}
![[Web Links Feed]](images/powered/feed_20_links.png "Web Links Feed"){kind=small}
![[Validate robots.txt]](images/powered/valid-robots.png "Validate robots.txt"){kind=small}