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this is how i plan to deworm
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toomanyfish
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 ya  the  concentration  is  about  that  much..am  using  4  400  mg  tablets  for  a  180  litre  tank
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 The  fish  are  doing  fine?
 
 deepesh
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 First  things  first,
 Hamza,  generally  discuss  keepers  and  breeders  have  pampered  and  over  pampered  their  fish  to  such  an  extent  that  somewhere  down  the  line  they  tend  to  loose  their  natural  immunity.  The  earlier  pampering  was  tolerable  because  fish  were  wild  caught  and  precious  -  now  since  the  fish  has  bred  in  captivity  for  generations  I  think  it  is  time  to  rule  out  the  bare  bottom  tanks  and  provide  a  more  natural  environment  to  the  fish.
 secondly,  the  gunshot  treatment  generally  works  if  you  can  grossy  identify  the  origin  of  the  infection  or  infestation.
 thirdly  you  should  understand  that  the  air  powered  sponge  filter  in  a  bare  bottom  discus  tank  where  you  tend  to  change  a  major  part  of  the  water  everyday  hardly  is  of  any  use  so  it  does  not  matter  even  if  you  take  it  off  as  you  really  are  not  looking  at  the  bio-filteration  properties  of  the  filter  and  it  does  little  for  the  mechanical  filtration.  The  external  canister  filter  should  be  turned  off  during  medication  IF  it  has  a  chemical  filter  media  like  activated  charcoal  or  something  that  adsorbs  chemicals.  Other  wise  you  could  safely  keep  it  running  as  mechanical  filtration  will  not  filter  out  dissolved  medication.
 @deepesh,
 a  small  stupid  question  -
 does  metrogyl  (IV)  and  the  tabs  for  oral  consumption  have  the  same  effect  when  used  in  the  water  column  for  treating  fish?
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Not  a  'stupid'  question  at  all.
 
 IV  and  tablet  metrogyl  have  the  same  effect.  I  had  recommended  IV  metrogyl  just  for  its  convenience.
 
 IV  metrogyl  is  much  costlier  than  tablet  metrogyl.  But  its  actual  cost  is  quite  affordable.  At  least  if  you  have  a  reasonably  small  tank,  not  one  the  of  the  humongous  ones.
 
 Tablets  tend  to  have  bulking  agents  like  lactose  as  well  as  binding  agents.  But  since  they  are  fit  for  human  consumption  I  presume  they  are  ok  for  fish  too.
 
 Intravenous  solutions  can  contain  preservatives  but  IV  metrogyl  does  not.
 
 One  peculiar  thing  -  one  dose  tablet  metrogyl  is  400  mg,  one  dose  IV  metrogyl  is  500  mg.
 
 deepesh
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Double  post...  sorry!!
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Ok,  so  you  mean  that  the  fluid  can  be  administered  directly  into  the  water  column?  See  the  whole  point  of  asking  this  question  is  I  was  always  of  the  idea  that  both  the  forms  of  the  same  medication  are  made  to  target  the  infection  from  a  different  angle:  I  mean  the  IV  gets  running  into  the  blood  stream  from  the  very  moment  it  is  injected  and  targets  the  infection  instantly,  where  as  the  orally  consumed  medication  needs  to  be  digested  first  to  start  acting  (of  course  both  enter  the  blood  stream  one  directly  and  the  other  in-directly)  now  using  the  medication  in  the  water  column  is  a  totally  different  ball  game  -  so  I  beg  your  expert  opinion  on  this.
 I  understand  that  metrogyl  might  be  an  expception  but  what  about  other  medications?
 BTW  I  don't  use  metrogyl  -  I  use  (rather  used  to  use  as  I  dont  have  discus  with  me  as  of  now)  Dependal-M  is  that  fine?
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toomanyfish
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 well  just  an  update..there  is  no  real  change  in  the  concerned  fish..ya  the  pores  on  her  head  have  vanished  but  still  not  eating
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Hi  aquascapes
 
 Sorry  for  the  late  reply.
 
 You  are  right  IV  and  oral  medications  are  a  little  different.  IV  medications  do  have  an  immediate  effect  as  compared  to  the  oral  formulation  -  which  of  course  we  desire  in  case  the  patient  is  seriously  ill.  The  surprise  is  that  as  far  as  antibiotics  are  concerned  both  oral  as  well  as  intravenous  formulations  are  equally  efficacious  -  most  studies  do  not  show  any  difference  in  end  results.
 
 Some  antibiotics  are  available  only  as  IV  formulations  because  they  get  digested  by  us  -  therefore  oral  forms  are  useless.
 
 Albendazole  and  its  ilk  are  only  oral  as  they  are  not  soluble  enough  in  water  to  make  an  IV  formulation.  Doctors  would  love  to  have  an  IV  formulation.
 
 As  far  as  dosing  the  water  column  is  concerned  it  makes  little  difference  whether  it  is  IV  or  oral,  as  the  drug  is  the  same.  Hamza  was  dosing  the  water  column.
 
 I  personally  feel  that  dosing  the  water  is  rather  unrefined  -  for  the  lack  of  a  better  word  and  for  the  lack  of  better  options  available.  I  feel  that  it  is  best  to  deliver  the  drug  to  the  fish  rather  than  to  the  water.  The  same  as  it  is  better  to  medicate  the  human  rather  than  the  air  he  breathes.
 
 Tetracyclines  and  erythromycin  are  drugs  that  bind  to  proteins  -  so  if  you  dose  these  to  the  water  they  get  concentrated  in  the  fish  and  the  bacteria  because  they  are  main  proteins  in  the  tank.  The  amount  in  the  fish  will  be  many  times  that  in  the  water.
 
 Metrogyl  is  freely  soluble  in  water  with  minimal  binding  to  proteins.  So  the  concentration  in  the  fish  is  the  same  as  in  the  water.
 
 Albendazole  dosing  to  the  water  would  be  the  least  effective  way  of  delivery  as  it  is  not  much  soluble  in  water.  The  particles  are  micronized  for  effective  delivery  to  the  worm.  This  also  means  that  the  particles  are  so  small  that  on  dispersing  in  the  water  (instead  of  dissolving)  it  does  look  as  if  the  drug  has  indeed  dissolved  in  the  water.  Is  that  a  totally  ineffective  way  of  treating  with  albendazole?  I  think  even  albendazole  in  the  water  has  some  effect  on  fish  parasites  -  fish  can  die  of  albendazole  toxicity  so  we  know  that  it  is  acting.  And  in  some  human  diseases  where  there  are  worms  in  the  brain  or  in  the  tissues  (as  opposed  to  worms  in  the  gut)  oral  albendazole  somehow  seems  to  control  and  cure  the  disease  over  a  period  of  few  months  intake  (as  opposed  to  a  single  days  dose  to  cure  intestinal  worms).
 
 I  would  still  maintain  that  albendazole  is  best  dosed  in  the  feed.  Maybe  other  drugs  too.
 
 deepesh
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aquascapes
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Thank  you  Deepesh  for  the  very  interesting  and  informative  answer!
 well,  I  must  say  that  my  experience  with  albendazole  is  not  a  very  pleasent  one  so  I  will  never  ever  lay  my  hands  on  it  even  mebendazole  for  that  matter  was  harsh  so  I  have  since  discontinued  the  use  (may  be  as  you  say  I  had  dosed  the  water  column  that  might  be  the  reason  but  anyways,  I  am  not  trying  it  again!)
 I  really  side  by  your  opinion  but,  a  hobbyist  who's  fish  is  starving  and  not  accepting  food  has  little  choice  as  they  say  in  Hindi  "Marta  kya  nahi  karta"  meaning  the  one  who  is  dying  will  try  out  every  trick  in  the  book  to  survive!!
 @Hamza,
 buddy  if  the  skin  shows  improvement  and  the  healing  process  is  on  -  he  should  be  hungry  pretty  soon!  All  the  best!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Deepesh  since  you  brought  in  Erythromycin  in  the  discussion,  Hamza  I'll  veer  a  bit  off  topic  here.  Not  deepesh's  fault!Very Happy  
 
 Erythromycin  is  effective  against  Cyanobacteria  aka  Blue  Green  Algae,  is  this  because  Cyanobacteria  is  a  bacteria  with  a  protein,  and  moving  on  to  gram  positive  and  gram  negative  bacteria,  Erythromycin  does  not  affect  nitryfying  bacteria  and  targets  cyanobacteria  among  others  for  the  same  reason  ?
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Umm...
 
 Erythromycin  does  bind  to  proteins  but  its  action  is  by  stopping  protein  synthesis.  This  is  because  it  binds  specifically  to  the  ribosome  (a  complex  of  protiens  and  RNA)  of  bacteria  -  most  of  the  time  gram  positive  bacteria.
 
 Erythromycin  has  little  effect  on  those  gram  negative  bacteria  that  concern  doctors  -  these  are  the  gram  negative  bacilli  that  infect  humans.  Therefore  the  blanket  statement  that  erythromycin  does  not  affect  gram  negative  bacilli.  Erythromycin  does  affect  some  gram  negatives  but  only  a  few  species  -  dependent  on  its  ability  to  bind  to  the  ribosome.
 
 We  humans  got  lucky  with  erythromycin.  Basically  a  large  portion  of  human  pathogens  are  gram  positive.  And  all  gram  positives  are  closely  related  to  each  other  in  terms  of  their  basic  physiology.  Including  cyanobacteria.
 
 Actually  gram  positives  belong  to  a  super-goup  which  includes  cyanobacteria  and  many  others,  all  sharing  closely  related  ribosomes.
 
 I  suspect  that  it  is  not  totally  safe  for  our  nitrifying  bacteria.  After  your  question  I  did  a  web  search  and  it  seems  that  erythromycin  does  affect  some  strains  of  nitrosomonas  and  nitrobacter.  Whether  that  will  totally  upset  the  aquarium  nitrogen  cycle  is  a  moot  point  as  there  are  many  species  of  bacteria  doing  that  stuff,  some  of  which  are  naturally  resistant  to  erythromycin  as  their  ribosomes  are  not  affected  by  erythromycin.
 
 deepesh
 
 PS:  Aquascapes  you  are  right  -  if  the  fish  is  not  eating  then  water  column  dosing  is  the  way  to  go  -  no  other  option.
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deepesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Again  a  late  reply  aquascapes.  Sorry  for  that!
 
 Dependal  M  contains  metronidazole.  It  also  contains  furazolidone  -  which  is  a  broad  spectrum  antibiotic  as  well  as  antiprotozoal.  It  acts  against  amoebae  and  some  flagellates  -  including  hexamita.  
 
 deepesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 hi  hamza,
 Good  to  hear  that  ..
 Now  try  to  add  some  Badam  leaves  in  your  tank  ..  they  will  keep  the  PH  lower  and  will  enable  faster  recovery...
 
 
 And  Very  good  inputs  there  Deepesh...Truly  very  informative...  Clapping
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venki25
Regular Poster on IAH
Regular Poster on IAH



Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 409
Location: Chennai

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

 Very  good  inputs.  Been  really  informative.
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aquascapes
Committed Member of IAH
Committed Member of IAH



Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 2753
Location: Surat, Gujarat

Status: Offline
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: this is how i plan to deworm Reply with quote

                                                   
deepesh  wrote  (View  Post):                
Again  a  late  reply  aquascapes.  Sorry  for  that!
 Dependal  M  contains  metronidazole.  It  also  contains  furazolidone  -  which  is  a  broad  spectrum  antibiotic  as  well  as  antiprotozoal.  It  acts  against  amoebae  and  some  flagellates  -  including  hexamita.  
 deepesh                

 Hamza,  are  you  reading  this?
 now  do  you  understand  why  I  was  suggesting  Dependal-M  instead  of  Metrogyl?
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