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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Budget Marine Tank
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Budget Marine Tank
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:05 am Post subject: wow Reply with quote

 apurva,
 
 wowzers,  thanx  a  bunch,  i'll  see  what  can  be  done...
 
 thanx  a  bunch....
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kuksinhyd
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:36 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi,  
 
 As  Simba  said,  that  when  water  evaporates  and  leaves  the  salt  behind,  we  would  need  to  add  the  trace  minerals.
 
 On  the  other  hand,  the  trace  minerals  are  also  left  behind,  when  reconstituting  with  tap  water,  the  trace  elements  present  in  tap  water  also  get  mixed  with  those  in  the  salt.  
 
 Why  the  salt  mix  sold  by  companies  is  so  expensive????
 ----  They  invest  a  lot  in  the  chemical  process  for  making  NaCl  (salt)  and  then  adding  the  trace  minerals  in  such  a  quantity  that  after  adding  tap  water  (from  anywhere  in  the  world)  will  not  make  the  concentrations  of  minerals  more  than  what  is  present  in  natural  seawater.  
 
 I  think  that  the  Goa  /  Gujrat  salt  should  work  pretty  well  for  us.
 
 Cheers!!!!
 Arvind
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kuksinhyd
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:42 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Check  out  this  site  regarding  using  natural  sea  water  :
 
 http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/makeupwater/f/blqaoceanwater.htm
 
 Cheers!!!!
 Arvind
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Very Happy  Hello  all!Since  I  live  in  gujarat,I  felt  it  necessary  to  comment.Yes  Salt  is  available  as  "sadha  namak"...uniodised.However,it  simply  does  not  contain  all  the  salts  contained  in  a  synthetic  mix.The  reason  is  that,as  water  evaporates,various  salts  crystalize  out  at  different  concentrations.Hence(just  an  example...may  not  actually  be  in  this  order)...hence  when  the  sea  water  is  drying,NaCl  crystalizes  first,MgCl  later,XYZchloride  even  later.Get  the  point?so,  different  salts  crystalize  at  different  levels.I  am  sure  who  ever  is  packing  the  salt  does  not  ensure  that  it  is  first  "mixed"  thoroughly  and  then  sold.So  what  you  miss  out  on  is  CONSISTENCY!!!!Which  is  the  whole  point  of  marine  keeping.CONSISTENCY,of  temparature,salinity  AND  COMPOSITION.
 
       so  ordinarily  dried  sea  salt  wont  work,unless  someone  at  the  site  of  drying  takes  specific  care  to  mix  all  the  crystalizing  layers  carefully.(and  you  think  some  one  can  do  it  with  TONS  of  salt???)
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shishirkamat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Adi,
 I  agree  with  your  point,But  then  it  would  be  worth    to  experiment  on  a  small  scale  by  using  this  type  of  salt,mostly  by  the  Marine  guys.If  successful  this  could  benefit  the  marine  fish  keepers  and  would  also  be  helpful  to  new  beginers  in  terms  of  cost  and  availability  Smile  
 with  regards
 shishir  kamat
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Very Happy  Ok  shishir.I  will  take  that  suggestion  seriously,and  keep  a  small  marine  tank,3x1.5x1.5ft,Is  this  size  acceptable  to  most  marine  keepers?A  failure  of  such  a  tank  should  not  be  attributed  to  its  small  size.  I  will  keep  IAH  posted  on  a  regular  basis,starting  from  next  sunday.Its  an  experiment,and  needs  to  be  carefully  planned...but  these  are  the  initial  plans
 1.  3x1.5x1.5feet  all  glass  tank.
 2.  Reverse  undergravel  filter,cycled  for  four  weeks  using"cycle"bacterial  culture,hagen
 3.  locally  procured  raw  uniodised  salt
 4.  One  single  specimen  of  goby,fed  tetramarin  flakes.
 
     Does  that  sound  ok?Any  changes  IAHers  may  suggest?Question  is,what  are  the  parameters  that  would  say  such  a  tank  is  "successful"?keeping  the  goby  alive  and  eating  for  1  month?...2  months?And  what  if  the  goby  died?Did  he  die  because  the  filtration  was  inadequate?how  do  we  know  he  died  because  of  the  salt?If  he  keeps  contracting  ich...is  that  a  failure  or  still  a  success  if  he  remains  alive  for  1/2  months?
   with  more  input  ,it  should  be  possible  for  me  to  device  a  proper  experiment,and  rule  out  other  variables  that  could  kill  the  goby.PLEASE  HELP.Thanks  in  advance.
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rajeev
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: Salt Reply with quote

 In  the  wild,  animals  have  cubic  miles  of  seawater  from  which  to  draw  the  minerals  that  they  need.  In  the  enclosed  environment  of  a  marine  aquarium  however,  animals  often  suffer  because  they  quickly  use  up  available  minerals.  Pcakaged  Sea  Salt  contains  enhanced  buffer  levels  ensuring  a  stable  pH  and  enhanced  levels  of  important  minerlas,  such  as  calcium,  strontium,  iodine,  iron,  cobalt,  rubidium,  lithium  and  many  others/.
 
 Having  said  that  IMO  that  regular  sea  salt  might  not  contain  the  above  and  might  be  very  high  in  pollutants  etc  hence  it  is  a  good  idea  to  use  packaged  sea  salt.  Since  this  hobby  does  not  have  good  commercial  value  there  are  no  Indian  salts  available  hence  in  the  land  of  Dandi  we  still  need  to  depend  on  overseas  brands.  HTH.
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venki25
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Salt Reply with quote

                                                   
rajeev  wrote:                
 hence  in  the  land  of  Dandi  we  still  need  to  depend  on  overseas  brands.  HTH.                

 
 Good  Quote.    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:
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nytyn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 The  dark  brown  salt  is  one  of  the  first  stages.  Then  they  wash[yes  wash]  the  salt  thus  made,  and  then  do  some  other  processing,  and  make  it  white.
 
 I  havent  seen  any  place  where  ppl  eat  brown  salt.
 
 And  about  setting  up  a  marine  tank,  you  guys  are  just  discussing  about  ish  Only[FO]  setups,  right?
 
 What  about  live  rock?  If  you  use  Live  rock,  you  need  to  have  heavy  lighting.  Same  goes  without  saying  for  Anemones.
 
 And  marine  tanks  need  much  higher  filtration  than  freshwater.  A  power  cut  of  more  than  4  hours  can  easily  crash  your  tank.
 
 I  would  suggest  an  Inverter  to  backup  your  powerheads,  in  case  of  a  power  failure.
 
 Another  thing  is,  as  filtration  is  very  crucial,  go  in  for  nothing  other  than  Eheim  or  Hagen  filters,  and  powerheads.  Boyu  might  conk  any  time,  and  I  wouldnt  recommend  it  to  anyone.
 
 And  you  would  need  to  do  a  minimum  30  percent  water  change  once  a  month.  Thats  the  bare  minimum.  For  the  kinda  stocking  levels  that  you  guys  are  discussing  you  would  need  a  minimum  of  50%  monthly  water  change.
 
 Cooking  salt  is  made  for  human  consumtion  and  is  not  meant  for  and  wont  work  for  marine  setups.  Thats  because  Red  Sea  salt  has  a  lot  of  trace  elemoents  added,  for  marine  life.  It  is  totally  synthetic,  and  is  100  percent  free  of  nitrates  and  ammonia.  Now,  if  you  have  nitrates,  nitrites  or  ammonia  in  your  cooking  salt,  and  start  a  tank  with  it,  I  think  it  is  not  a  good  idea!
 
 Thats  that  for  now!
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murthy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Confused:  so  you  guys  recommend  I  dump  the  experiment  idea?
       Is  it  worth  trying  it  out,even  if  for  a  lightly  stocked,hardy  fish  collection?water  changes  will  be  very  easy  and  cheap(thats  the  whole  point...if  salt  is  cheaply  available,i  dont  mind  changing  water  every  other  day!)
 
         Nytyn,the  brown  salt  you  mention  can  easily  be  got....salt  pans  of  kutch  is  not  very  far  away.Infact  the  salt  can  literally  be  bought  off  the  shore,sans  any  processing.what  say?
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rajeev
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: Salt Reply with quote

 Murthy,  I  think  your  experiment  is  worth  the  shot  'cause  the  salt  might  have  some  trace  elements  mixed  in  it  and  most  of  the  other  trace  elements  that  ready  made  salt  manufacturers  are  typically  for  Coral  Reef  Tank  and  since  this  is  a  Fish  only  tank  IMO  that  it  will  certainly  work  but  just  make  sure  that  after  you  create  the  saltwater  mix  let  it  run  for  a  week  and  also  it  through  a  good  filter  which  has  a  carbon  filter  so  that  all  the  un  dissolved  wastes  can  betrapped  the  carbon  will  polish  the  water.  If  you  have  got  a  skimmer  then  put  that  on  also  and  dont  forget  keep  the  water  moving  bu  adding  a  power  head.  The  first  fish  that  you  can  intro  is  I  think  an  Damsel  etc.  Best  of  luck
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simba
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Murthy,
 
 I  think  your  experiment  is  going  to  put  your  damsel  through  a  lot  of  stress.  If  you  are  willing  to  torture  your  fish  for  an  experiment,  which  am  sure  world  over  many  aquarists  must  have  already  tried  and  failed,  its  your  wish.  Please  read  what  the  experts  have  to  say  about  the  use  of  sea  salt  instead  of  synthetic  sea  salt  mixes,  please.  Sometimes  its  wiser  to  buy  a  wheel  than  to  re-invent  it.  :-D
 
 Simba
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murthy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Simba,your  concern  for  the  damsel(actually  a  goby)is  really  nice.I  respect  that.But  if  you  take  into  consideration  the  number  of  fish  i've  killed  in  my  aquatic  "career",i'd  be  burning  in  naraka  by  now.So  the  goby  will  be  put  to  test!    Sad  
       I  have  been  through(and  through  and  through)  about  what  the  experts  say,but  for  simple  marine  tanks,housing  hardy  fish,a  kind  of  "DIY"salt  would  be  very  useful.
 
       If  it  is  really  "trace"  elements  that  are  required,why  dont  we  add  raw  salt  AND  a  kilo  or  two  of  synthetic  salt.That  way  traces  are  introduced,and  will  still  work  out  cheap....
       
       Alternatively,can  an  experienced  marine  keeper  list  out  the  trace  elements?is  it  not  possible  to  buy  it  from  a  chemicals  dealer,and  try  a  marine  "PMDD"?
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rajeev
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:53 am Post subject: Experiment Reply with quote

 Simba,  I  do  agree  with  your  reasoning  but  if  this  experiment  proves  to  be  successful  it  would  be  a  great  begining  for  us  Marine  Hobbyists.  Let  us  understand  one  thing  that  most  of  the  ready  made  salt  manufacturers  will  always  underplay  the  use  the  sea  salt  mailnly  for  2  reasons  a>  Commercial  Interests  2>  Genuine  concern  and  in  that  order.  So  having  said  that  I  guess  Murthy  could  give  it  a  shot  and  all  he  would  do  is  probably  sacrifice  a  Damsel  or  Goby  in  the  spirit  of  science  and  experiment  and  havent  we  killed  many  a  fish  in  the  spirit  of  hobby.  
 
 Murhty  you  just  need  to  document  this  experimnet  well  and  before  you  start  please  keep  the  following  handy.
 
 1.  Hydrometer.
 2.  Clean  Water  (Not  bore  well  etc,  RO/DI  preferred)
 3.  Powerhead.
 4.  External  or  internal  filter.
 5.  Protein  Skimmer.
 6.  Bacteria.
 
 if  this  work  we  will  all  be  grateful  to  Murthy  and  the  marine  hobby  will  take  of  in  a  big  way.  So  I  guess  we  need  to  offer  as  much  as  encouragement  to  Murthy.
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murthy
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Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Posts: 702
Location: Bangalore

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 1.hydrometer-check!
 2.RO  water-      check!
 3.Power  head-check!
 4.External  filter......too  expensive  to  invest  in,for  an  experiment.All  canisters  are  in  use  for  more  valuable  live  stock.I  think  i'll  go  in  for  the  Undergravel(reverse  flow).
 5.Protein  skimmer-small  DIY  unit  will  be  used.(again  buying  a  new  unit  for  the  experiment  will  prove  expensive)
 6.Bacteria-check!(cycle  from  hagen)
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