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Testing a theory
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:56 am Post subject: The grand revealing of the theory Reply with quote

 Thanks  all  for  your  input
 14  aquarists  contributed...Here  is  what  the  numbers  tell  us:
 
 Livebearers:  8  aquarists  with  7  Spp
 CA  cichlids:  8  aquarists  with  6  Spp
 SA  cichlids:  4  aquarists  with  4  Spp
 Tangs:  3  aquarists  with  6  Spp
 W.  African  cichlids:  3  aquarists  with  2  Spp
 Discus:  3  aquarists
 Cyprinids/Barbs:  3  aquarists  with  4  Spp
 Anabantids/Badids:  3  aquarists  with  2  Spp
 Tetras:  2  aquarists  with  3  Spp
 Malawian  cichlids:  2  aquarists  with  4  Spp
 Killies:  1  aquarist  with  3  Spp
 
 A  grand  total  of  40  different  Spp!!!!
 As  expected,  cichlids  dominate  with  23  different  Spp!!!
 Now  for  the  shockers:
 No  catfish,  just  one  anabantid,  virtually  no  barbs,  hardly  any  killies,  no  rainbowfish!!!!!
 
 So,  on  to  the  theory;
 
 Reading  all  the  responses  to  Beta's  post  on  the  ornamental  fish  trade,  my  
 theory  was  about  what  Indian  aquarists  stand  to  gain  or  lose  by  the  Government  opening  up  the  fish  trade...
 
 What  you  will  gain:  access  to  a  large  variety  of  "exotic  fish"...read  more  cichlids      :lol:  
 
 What  you  will  lose:  an  opportunity  to  spawn  an  even  larger  variety  of  fish,  many  native,  many  undescribed  to  science.
 
 The  numbers  seem  to  uphold  my  theory...Many  of  you  seem  to  like  cichlids,  but  not  catfish  or  rainbows??  I  know  many  species  of  both  are  available  in  India...is  it  because  people  have  tried  and  failed  or  because  of  a  lack  of  interest/effort??
 
 Very  few  seem  to  have  worked  with  native  fish  recently...Why???  There  are  tons  of  interesting,  pretty  (if  you  want  pretty)  fish  in  India  that  are  worthy  additions  to  any  collection.  Many  have  never  been  spawned  in  captivity.  I  know  many  of  you  are  experienced/capable  of  being  the  first  to  do  so.  
 
 In  short,
 
 My  theory:  Indian  aquarists  favor  cichlids  over  an  array  of  equally  interesting  fish
 
 A  request:  try  and  include  more  genera  of  fish  in  your  breeding  plans
 
 
   Smile  
 
 Comments,  suggestions,  questions,  contrarian  views  welcome??
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nag
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:08 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Hi  Rahul:
 
 Very  encouraging  findings  there!
 
 But,  what  to  do  with  all  those  fish  frys...  Confused:    Shocked    :lol:  
 
 Then,  how  many  tanks  do  we  keep  ooonnnnn  adding...??
 Regards,
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Very Happy    Very Happy  and  whats  not  easily  available  is  what  is  "special"no??But  you  have  a  point,retro.Steps  taken  to  breed  native  fish  in  captivity  will  ensure  sufficient  supply  when  the  ornamental  fish  industry  opens  up.and  conserve  wild  fish  from  being  over  exploited.
 
       Discus  is  a  "high  demand"  fish.Yet  greatest  discus  breeders  are  from  far  east  or  germany(or  european),not  south  america.(correct  me  if  i'm  wrong)Right?...why?
       
       Cichlids  being  a  favourite  over  other  genera  is  a  world  wide  phenomenon.Not  specific  to  the  indian  hobbyist.And  unfortnately  india(indian  subcontinent)  is  rather  low  on  cichlid  species.From  what  little  I  (shamefully)know  about  indian  ornamental  fish,"India  is  a  land  of  barbs"?retro,it  is  now  your  duty  to  introduce  some  indian  "ornamental"  species,with  pics/links  if  possible.  Smile  if  they  deserve  the  place  they  are  looking  for  in  our  tanks,they  will  get  it!
       To  be  brutally  honest,I  have  not  come  across  anything  Indian,that  catches  my  fancy.(at  the  risk  of  sounding  unpatriotic  :lol:    :lol:  )
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murthy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 hello  again...here  is  one  link  I  found...    http://www.ornamentalfishes.org/html/family.htm
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beta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 My  contribution  would  be  to  breed  E.  canarensis,  how  many  ever  years  it  takes  Very Happy
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
 Discus  is  a  "high  demand"  fish.Yet  greatest  discus  breeders  are  from  far  east  or  germany(or  european),not  south  america.(correct  me  if  i'm  wrong)Right?...why?
                 

 
 Exactly  my  point!!!!!  People  do  not  realise  the  value  of  their  own  resources.  Just  using  S  America  as  an  example,  they  have  continued  to  export  wild  fishes  with  little  effort  towards  breeding  them...result???  many  species  are  now  threatened  in  the  wild  due  to  habitat  loss/overfishing.  Most  "aquarium  fish"  are  also  food  fish  in  S  America  (as  they  are  in  India),  leading  to  increased  fishing  pressure,  once  the  ornamental  trade  comes  in.  Also  think  lake  Victoria
 
 Would  you  rather  have  some  E  German  breeder  be  the  first  to  spawn  a  newly  discovered  Indian  fish???  Then  wait  for  some  SE  Asian  farm  to  come  up  with  a  golden/veiltail  variety  of  the  same  fish  and  pay  big  bucks  to  import  the  "new  and  improved"  version????  Think  "gold  wonder  killie"!!!
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
 Cichlids  being  a  favourite  over  other  genera  is  a  world  wide  phenomenon                

 
 Yes,  absolutely,  but  there  are  a  significant  number  of  people  who  also  focus  solely  on  killies,  catfish,  tetras,  barbs,  anabantids  etc.  In  India,  we  seem  to  be  focussing  solely  on  cichlids.  I  too,  am  guilty  of  this  Crying or Very sad  
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
retro,it  is  now  your  duty  to  introduce  some  indian  "ornamental"  species,with  pics/links  if  possible                

 
 While  a  few  Indian  fish  have  received  global  attention,  the  vast  majority  are  obscure....This  is  why  I  said  we  are  missing  a  golden  opportunity.
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
I  have  not  come  across  anything  Indian,that  catches  my  fancy                

 
 Do  you  mean  in  terms  of  beauty  or  behaviour??  
 
 Beauty  lies  in  the  eye  of  the  beholder,  but  if  you  have  seen  a  shoal  of  wild  barbs/danios,  or  any  of  our  gouramies  in  spawning  colours  and  still  think  they  are  plain  ,  your  standards  are  far,  far,  far  higher  than  mine  Smile  
 
 As  far  as  behaviour  goes,  it  is  very  subjective...but,  anabantids  are  just  as  interesting  as  cichlids...  and  loaches  probably  have  the  most  personality.  I  happen  to  like  catfish  too  Smile  
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
what  to  do  with  all  those  fish  frys                

 
 Live  food!!!!!  :lol:    
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                
how  many  tanks  do  we  keep  ooonnnnn  adding                

 
 Depends  on  how  much  time/space/money  you  have.  But  again,  only  cichlids  need  large  tanks,  I've  spawned  barbs,  tetras  and  anabantids  in  1  gallon  tanks  and  raised  the  fry  in  buckets...so  ditch  cichlids  and  you  can  probably  make  do  with  fewer  tanks!!!  :wink:
 
 Again,  it  is  not  my  intention  to  criticise  your  choice  of  fish,  merely  to  open  your  eyes  to  a  whole  new  world  of  possibility  at  your  doorstep.
 
 Beta,  I  am  (im)patiently  waiting  for  your  canarensis  to  spawn,  I  can  then  get  my  hands  on  some  f1's  :lol:
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Lancelot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject: er Reply with quote

 retro,
 
 you  do  have  a  very  valid  point,  but  there  are  always  problems  when  dealing  with  native  fish.    the  first  and  foremost  problem  is  interest.    when  you  realize  that  you  can  see  the  fish  anytime,  or  find  that  is  available  locally,  you  tend  to  lose  interest.    it  is  human  nature  to  want  something  exotic,  if  possible,  something  that  is  hard  to  find,  or  something  that  people  will  look  up  to  us  for.
 
 this  is  why  i  feel  that  very  few  if  any  ever  bother  with  fishes  or  anything  from  their  own  country  when  they  can  get  "exotic"  varieties  from  other  countries.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

 A  very  good  point  either  Retro!  Hats  Off!!  Very Happy  Smile
 When  it  comes  to  fish  keeping/breeding  there  are  some  constraints  that  lie  ahead  the  hobbyist,  some  unwinnable.    
 Around  3  years  back  i  had  a  group  of  8  E.maculatus  and  they  spawned.    I  was  ready  to  give  it  to  anyone  whose  interested,  for  free.    Just  had  around  30  babies.    But  unfortunately  none  were  interested  in  owning  them.    This  is  the  point  made  by  Nag.    In  my  view  maculatus  is  one  little  cichlid  full  of  energy,  but  where  I  failed  was,  I  wasn't  able  to  convince  others  on  this.    And  these  years  in  my  hobby  i've  housed  many  native  barbs  like  denisoniis,  blue  dotted  hill  trouts,  melan  barb  but  again  the  problem  was,  marketting  them  to  others.
 Also  when  it  comes  to  cats  i  defenetely  fear  that  I  dont  have  enough  water  &  space  to  breed  a  cat  like  red  tailed  cat  or  a  shovel  nose  but  can    try  my  hand  on  a  few  corries.
 
 Bottom  Line:  We  need  to  take  the  initiatives  in  promoting  our  native  fishes  and  convince  the  common  hobbyist  that  India  is  no  inferior  to  the  Amazons  because  when  the  demand  comes  in.....obviously  the  production  follows.
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murthy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:40 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
madhu_ulysses  wrote:                

 ....India  is  no  inferior  to  the  Amazons  because  when  the  demand  comes  in.....obviously  the  production  follows.                

 
 Are  you  serious?madhu?do  you  believe  there  are  indian  species  to  beat  ,say  for  example,cardinals?....or  rams?...or  discus?...angels?...oscars?....piranhas?(each  south  american  example  chosen  for  either  beauty  or  behavioural  interest)
 
 Marine  species  are  a  different  story(and  I  am  totally  inexperienced)but  i'm  sure  we  have  a  wealth  of  Orna.fish  there.Coral  propagation,and  captive  breeding  should  be  researched  and  commercialised.(think  carribean/fiji/hawaii)
 
 Again,I  am  still  waiting  for  convincing  pics.  Very Happy  
 
 The  right  fish  should  not  need  "convincing"  or  "marketing"  to  popularise.It  has  to  have  inherent  beauty/behaviour  that  would  be  its  selling  point.
 
   Very Happy  I  hope  i'm  not  getting  into  everyone's  unfavourable  books,but  i'm  just  trying  to  be  honest.No  hard  feelings  please!!!!
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retro_gk
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:43 am Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
it  is  human  nature  to  want  something  exotic,  if  possible,  something  that  is  hard  to  find,  or  something  that  people  will  look  up  to  us  for.                  

 
 Sad,  but  very  true...
 
 But  if  dedicated  aquarists  turn  the  spotlight  on  native  fish,  I  am  sure  many  newbies  and  casual  fish  keepers  will  want  to  emulate  them.  
 I  just  saw  a  post  from  someone  asking  about  P.arulius...one  of  the  first  fish  I  ever  caught  and  kept  in  my  tanks...made  me  feel  all  warm  and  gooey  inside  Very Happy  
 
 Unless  you  breed  fish  for  a  living,  there  is  no  need  to  raise  dozens  of  fry,  just    raise  enought  to  maintain  your  population  and  trade  with  other  hobbyists.  Most  importantly,  keep  records  of  your  experiences  and  share  them  with  the  world.
 
 There  is  a  small,  but  growing  movement  focussing  on  native  fish  worldwide...Nonn  Pannitvong  is  fairly  active  in  Thailand,  there  is  the  NANFA  in  the  US...I  think  the  time  is  ripe  for  a  similar  movement  back  home.
 
 Madhu,  I  don't  think  a  red-tailed  cat  will  ever  be  spawned  in  an  aquarium  :lol:  ,  but  cories,  bagrids,  erethistids  and  silurids  certainly  can!!!  Good  luck.
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venki25
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Rahul
 
 Your  findings  are  worthwile.  Its  good  to  note  quite  a  lot  of  guys  are  taking  up  Positively.  It  is  encouraging  to  note  pros  and  cons.  I  think  these  findings  are  just  the  beginning  and  everyone  should  think  about  their  small  contribution.  A  simple  resolve  to  house  at  least  a  10  Gallon  for  native  fishes.
 
 Is  it  going  to  happen  tomorrow,  no  it  is  not.  Lets  look  at  it  this  way,  promote  simpler  acceptable  methods  in  terms  of  Native  fishes.  Our  Priority  must  be  this  hobby  should  spread  its  wings  within  our  country  on  a  positive  note  with  more  serious  pros  getting  in  and  not  going  out.  This  is  the  serious  part.    We  are  way  behind  some  Asian  countries  like  Malysia,  Thailand,  Indonesia  Phillipines  and  Singapore.  What  is  their  strength  of  their  industry  -  they  are  into  this  for  a  long  on  a  serious  ways.  Their  economies  supported.  Now  its  our  turn.  Lets  not  get  excited  on  this  note.
 
 Let  there  be  promotions  on    Indian  native  fishes.  I  for  myself  have  decided  to  set  up  a  small  tank  for  native  Fishes,  very  shortly.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 If  anybody  is  ready  to  take  up  the  challenge,  I  would  recommend  the  following:
 --  Oryzias  melastigma  (Beautiful  blue  eyes,  they  carry  the  eggs  outside  the  body)
 --  Puntius  bimaculatus  (Males  have  a  beautiful  red,  horizontal  line)
 --  Puntius  narayani
 --  Puntius  dennisoni  (this  one  is  a  jewel  but  horribly  exploited)
 --  Channa  aurantimaculata  (Will  need  a  large  tank)
 --  Channa  stewartii  
 --  Colisa  lalia  (always  popular)
 --  Oreichthys  cosuatis  (High  fin  barb,  Males  have  a  flowing  dorsal  fin)
 --  Erethistes  pusillus  (Giant  moth  catfish)
 --  Hara  hara  (moth  catfish)
 --  Hara  jerdoni  (Anchor  catfish)
 
 please  add  more...


Last edited by beta on Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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venki25
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
beta  wrote:                
If  anybody  is  ready  to  take  up  the  challenge,  I  would  recommend  the  following:
 --  Oryzias  melastigma  (Beautiful  blue  eyes)
 --  Puntius  bimaculatus  (Males  have  a  beautiful  red,  horizontal  line)
 --  Puntius  narayani
 --  Puntis  dennisoni  (this  one  is  a  jewel  but  horribly  exploited)
 --  Channa  aurantimaculata  (Will  need  a  large  tank)
 --  Channa  stewartii  
 --  Colisa  lalia  (always  popular)
 --  Puntis  dennisoni
 --  Erethistes  pusillus
 --  Hara  hara
 --  Hara  jerdoni
 
 please  add  more...                

 
 What  about  Chromides.  err  are  they  in  the  list  in  scientific  names.
 
 Beta  which  fish  will  you  suggest  me  on  for  a  2x1x1  (15  G)  tank???  Will  Puntius  Narayani  do  for  it.  Or  how  many  Chromides  in  such  a  tank??
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

 Etroplus  maculatus  is  easy  to  breed.  
 Etroplus  suratensis  is  a  little  more  challenging  as  its  mostly  found  in  brackish  water  habitats  and  it  attains  a  size  of  10  inches+.
 Etroplus  canarensis  is  very  difficult  to  find.  Its  also  prone  to  sudden  die  offs  without  any  apparent  reason  at  all.  If  you  manage  to  get  your  hands  on  them  its  mandatory  to  deworm  them.  I  have  been  trying  to  breed  them  for  the  last  three  years  without  any  success.  
 Its  kind  of  my  purpose  in  life  now  Very Happy  
 
 Puntius  narayaniand  Oreichthys  cosuatis  are  very  good  options  for  a  2  foot  tank.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject:  Reply with quote

                                                   
murthy  wrote:                
Are  you  serious?madhu?do  you  believe  there  are  indian  species  to  beat  ,say  for  example,cardinals?....or  rams?...or  discus?...angels?...oscars?....piranhas?(each  south  american  example  chosen  for  either  beauty  or  behavioural  interest)
                 

 Why  not  Murthy?    If  you  are  talking  about  angels  &  discus....how  many  of  us  have  wild  strains  of  discus  or  angels?    Its  all  domestication  that  propelled  the  demand  of  discus  and  angels.    Also  talking  about  rams,  all  the  rams  mostly  available  are  German  Blues  and  not  the  wild  strains.      I've  got  a  pair  of  around  6"  brown  discus.    But  most  of  the  people  who  see  my  discus  seldom  cares  to  look  at  them,  all  that  caught  their  minds  were  snakeskins,  turks  &  blue  diamonds.    And  talking  about  Discus  &    cardinals  just  imagine  the  care  that  has  to  be  taken  to  keep  them  in  good  health.
 Instead  take  the  case  of  dennisonis,  panchax,  blue  dotted  hill  trouts,  metallic  hill  trouts,  giant  danio,    black  lined  rasboras.    They  are  really  colourful  and  are  very  active  swimmers  and  comparably  easy  to  care  for.
 And  when  it  comes  to  behaviour  just  try  a  group  of  maculatus  in  a  20  gal  tank.    They're  little  ones  with  amazing  activity  and  when  you're  looking  for  a  predator  why  not  try  snakeheads.    A  few  years  back  one  of  my  snake  head  grew  to  around  a  foot  in  a  20  gal  tank  with  higher  levels  of  nitrates.    Also  monos  can  be  tried  because  i've  seen  many  housed  in  FWs  for  a  considerable  long  time.
 When  i  was  talking  about  marketting,  i  meant  'to  show  them  off'  rather  than  actual  'marketting'  and  i  never  meant  to  suggest  people  to  migrate  from  foreign  exotics  to  native  exotics.    I  just  suggested  if  you  are  having  5-6  tanks  just  spare  1  tank  for  natives  which  would  attract  atleast  2  out  of  10  to  have  native  tanks  and  i  believe  many  of  us  have  done  this.
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