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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Indian Hillstream loaches
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Indian Hillstream loaches
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Marc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Hi  Sujoy,  lovely  pics  of  the  hill  stream  species   Thumb Up  
 You  distinguishing  the  two  species  on  basis  of  just  colour  patterns  or  any  other  meristic/morphometrics......
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Hi  Marc
 
 The  difference  is  in  Size,  colour  pattern,  and  also  both  were  males  and  the  mouth  formation  perhaps  as  well.
 
 You  could  see  these  differences  in  the  pics  may  be....
 
 One  has  to  go  and  look  for  more  of  these  as  I  am  sure  there  are  many  more  varieties  as  well.  The  lower  Himalayas  is  hardly  accurately  researched  so  there  is  a  possibility.
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

                                                   
joyban  wrote  (View  Post):                
Hi  Marc
 The  difference  is  in  Size,  colour  pattern,  and  also  both  were  males  and  the  mouth  formation  perhaps  as  well.
                 

 
 If  your  classification  is  based  on  colour  and  size,  there  is  nothing  that  we  can  agree  upon.   BTW,  how  were  you  able  to  sex  them  before  even  confirming  on  the  ID?
 
 
                                                 
joyban  wrote:                

 You  could  see  these  differences  in  the  pics  may  be....                

 
 IMO,  Indian  hill  streams  aren't  that  simple  to  zero  in  on  a  confirmed  ID.   If  you  would  have  read  the  first  few  pages  of  this  thread  and/or  seen  more  than  one  live  species,  you  would  probably  know  how  close  they  are.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

                                                   
joyban  wrote  (View  Post):                
Hi  Marc
 
 The  difference  is  in  Size,  colour  pattern,  and  also  both  were  males  and  the  mouth  formation  perhaps  as  well.
 
 You  could  see  these  differences  in  the  pics  may  be....
 
 One  has  to  go  and  look  for  more  of  these  as  I  am  sure  there  are  many  more  varieties  as  well.  The  lower  Himalayas  is  hardly  accurately  researched  so  there  is  a  possibility.
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy                

 
 Did  Heiko  try  and  get  it  IDed?  I  remember  that  we  thought  it  could  be  Balitora  brucei.
 
 Check  if  it  matches  any  of  these  characteristics:
 'Dorsal  fin  inserted  above  or  slightly  ahead  of  pelvic  ins  and  with  12  rays  (nine  branched).  Anal  fin  short  with  seven  rays  (five  branched).  Paired  fins  broad  and  horizontal.  Pectoral  fins  with  19-21  rays  (8-10  simple  and  11-12  branched).  Pelvic  fins  with  11  rays  (two  simple  and  nine  branched).  Caudal  fin  forked.  Lateral  line  complete  with  68-70  scales'.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 We  could   only  catch  two  of  them,  but  from  the  size  and  pattern  they  were  both  different,  even  the  mouth  and  head  position,  length  were  slightly  different  from  what  we  saw,  you  are  right  to  say  that  with-out  an  proper   id  it  will  be  difficult  to  get  to  know  the  exact  species  of  fish.  I  have  some  other  pics  of  the  loach  where  the  fin  count  was  very  clear,  will  have  to  look  for  it  again.  Again  it  is  an  un-identified  fish  as  of  now.  Though  both  of  them  were  from  the  same  river  system  and  were  found  underneath  the  rocks  where  there  was  maximum  current.  The  Colour  Pattern  was  amazing,  I  had  not  myself  seen  a  Balitora  with  such  dark  brown  colour  pattern  before.  I  have  seen  other  Indian  Hill  Stream  Loaches  before  and  had  the  Travancoria  jonesi,  Travancoria  elongata,  from  look  wise  and  head  depression  etc  they  are  very  different.   
 
 As  for  the  sex  of  the  fish  it  was  determined  by  Heiko  later  that  both  were  males.  
 
 Yes  we  though  it  was  probably  a  Balitora  brucei  when  I  had  a  discussion  with  you  on  this  loach,  but  as  per  Heiko  it  is  still  not  identified  correctly,  from  Jayaram's  book  the  Balitora  brucei  should  have  the  following  id  keys  :-
 
 Four  short  thick  Rostral  barbels  and  one  pair  maxillary.  Dorsal  fin  inserted  above  or  slightly  ahead  of  pelvic  fins  and  with  11  or  12  rays  (nine  branched).  Paired  Fins  Broad  and  Horizontal.   Pectoral  fins  with  19-21  rays  (8-10  simple  and  12  branched).Adhesive  pads  present  on  ventral  surface  of  the  8  to  11  most  pectoral  and  three  or  four  pelvic  rays.     Anal  fin  short  with  seven  rays  (five  branched).  Paired  fins  broad  and  horizontal.Caudal  fin  forked.  Lateral  line  complete  with  62-70  scales'.  Scale  Small.
 
 Will  now  have  to  compare  the  description  with  the  pics  we  had  clicked.
 
 According  to  fishbase  :-
 
 Balitora  brucei  Gray  -  Dorsal  soft  rays  (total):  11  -  11;  Anal  soft  rays:  8.  Distinguished  from  other  species  by  the  combination  of  the  following  characters:  head  length  19-22%  SL;  caudal  peduncle  3.0-4.2  times  longer  than  deep;  head  width  at  nares  14.9-17.1%  SL,  77-87%  HL,  maximum  head  width  86-105%  HL;  interorbital  width  41-49%  HL;  length  of  caudal  peduncle  16.7-21.4%  SL;  preanal  length  72.0-78.6%  SL
 
 Baliotora  burmanica  -Dorsal  soft  rays  (total):  11  -  11;  Anal  soft  rays:  8.  Distinguished  from  all  other  species  of  Balitora  except  B.  brucei  by  its  thin  caudal  peduncle  (3-4  times  longer  than  deep,  vs.  1.9-2.8;  length  16-21%  SL,  vs.  13-16%  and  72-106%  lateral  HL,  vs.  65-82);  it  differs  from  B.  brucei  by  a  larger  eye  (3.0-4.0%  SL,  vs.  2.3-3.3),  thinner  head  (73-85%  HL,  versus  86-105)  and  shorter  interorbital  width  (37-42%  HL,  versus  40-44).
 
 Balitora  mysorensis  -Distinguished  from  any  other  species  of  the  genus  by  its  longer  head  (23-25%  SL,  versus  19-23  in  other  species).  From  B.  annamitica,  B.  burmanica  and  B.  meridionalis  it  is  easily  distinguished  by  its  greater  number  of  scales  along  lateral  line  (64-65  versus  61-64),  from  B.  burmanica  and  B.  brucei  by  its  stouter  caudal  peduncle  (1.9  times  longer  than  deep,  versus  3-4)
   
 The  Balitora  brucei  pics  on  the  internet  are  slightly  different  though  from  one  which  we  found.  Here  are  link  to  a  few  pics:-
 
 1.  http://www.loaches.com/species-index/photos/b/balitora_brucei_01.jpg
 
 2.  http://www.fishbase.se/images/species/Babru_u0.jpg
 
 Again  I  am  no  expert  in  this  at  all  and  I  am  also  learning,  Will  look  for  the  Original  Camera  Pics  and  try  and  do  a  measurement  and  a  comparative  with  the  pics  we  have  ...
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

                                                   
joyban  wrote  (View  Post):                
 Will  look  for  the  Original  Camera  Pics  and  try  and  do  a  measurement  and  a  comparative  with  the  pics  we  have  ...
                 

 
 Photographs  are  two  dimensional  and  you  tend  to  get  atleast  20%  error.  
 
 I  would  suggest  you  go  back  to  the  locality  and  collect  a  few  more  and  with  the  fish  in  hand  you  can  be  sure..........  Thumb Up
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Right  Marc
 
 I  am  keen  to  go  back  and  collect  some  fishes  from  there  as  well  ,  if  any  IAH  members  are  interested,  can  do  a  trip  in  a  group.  March  End  -  Mid  April  is  the  best  time.
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Travancoria  sp.  I  will  let  Balaji  update  the  location.
 
 
 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Hi  Balaji  
 
 Where  did  you  find  these  loaches  ?,  they  are  wonderful.  
 
 Regards
 
 Sujoy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Collected  from  Kumbakarai,  a  stream  7  kms  from  Periyakulam,  Theni  district.  This  stream  is  below  the  Kodaikanal  Hills.  
 
 The  stream  was  not  too  fast  flowing.   All  the  Travancoria  (  a  dozen)  were  collected  from  under  a  boulder  where  there  was  most  flow.  Substrate  was  primarily  rocks  and  pebbles.  No  vegetation  in  the  stream.  Dont  have  habitat  pics  unfortunately.
 
 Other  species  collected  from  the  spot  :  Garra  Sp.,  Schistura  cf.semiarmatus,D.malabaricus,Schistura  denisonii.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 The  series  of  patterns  near  the  ventral  side  upto  the  caudal  end,  does  it  vary  among  the  Bhavania  australis?  I  got  2  variations  from  the  Kumaradhara  ones.  One  has  distinct  large  blotches  and  the  other  has  row  of  fine  spots.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

                                                   
Shankar  wrote  (View  Post):                
The  series  of  patterns  near  the  ventral  side  upto  the  caudal  end,  does  it  vary  among  the  Bhavania  australis?  I  got  2  variations  from  the  Kumaradhara  ones.  One  has  distinct  large  blotches  and  the  other  has  row  of  fine  spots.                

 
 ^^  Ping!  Ting!!  Dwoing!!!
 
 Bhavania  australis  from  Canara
 
 Pic  -  Arjun
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Picture  of  few  that  we  caught  in  the  foot  hills  of  valparai.  As  soon  as  they  were  released  into  the  tank.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Underside
 
 
 
 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Bhavania:  Gill  opening  small  and  situated  entirely  above  base  of  pectoral  fins.
 
 Can  you  figure  that  out?  The  pics  are  not  helping.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Indian Hillstream loaches Reply with quote

 Will  this  help?
 
 
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