Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
Hi,
The intention of the profiling system is to distinguish between a business person vs a hobbyist. There are several rules and regulations that are followed on our forum itself, to name one LFS annoucements where one is allowed to post only on Sundays Vs a hobbyist who can post on any given day on the WTS / WTB section. I dont see how profiling will affect any hobbyist is any way since he is going to profile himself as a hobbyist. So if he is selling any of his personal things, he is anyways selling it as a hobbyist. A hobbyist can offcourse sell his things at a margin considering if its something rare the amount of effort he has put in acquiring it, his purchase cost etc etc. If you are discarding your used or may be new bought product which probably you have no use for now, no harm is selling that. So there if you are profiled as a hobbyist whats wrong with it and why would you have any issues with it?
However if you are a businessman who is selling his personal stuff that is used in the hobby, oh come on, no business man who if in his business would get more money selling the product would sell it cheaper here! Lets be factual guys, even if a hobbyist gets a better deal elsewhere than here he/she will sell it for a better price
So i dont see why a hobbyist would have any issues being called a hobbyist, why a ethical business man would have any issues being called a business man, however its the grey guys that need to come out white in the open and not make victims of the hobbyist. If you are making money out of any deal, you are simply and in plain terms doing business. Own it up is all i am trying to say in the profiling system. If you are not an LFS, then the profiling system can call you an hobbyist with business interest too and call an LFS a LFS. I am sure no one here would enjoy buying a fish from someone who claims it comes out from his own tank and is quarantine and all of that jazz however it truly just came out of an LFS tank where the proclaimed hobbyist just struck a better deal than you and you paid a better price for it thinking its coming out of his tank safe and sound.
There are a few people who are execeptions to a lot of things and i am not refering to any individuals or exceptions to what i have said above. This is for the larger consortium. Also i am not the one who is going to say implement the system, its eventually a call that the Site owners and admins have to take. I am just seeking opinions and healthy discussions with no pun intended.
@all
This is a thread only for discussion and not to vent our personal deals gone sour, in the interest of keeping the conversation healthy lets not discuss how personal deals went or what happened. We all know that this happens and since many hobbyist spoke to me about this i started this thread.
Hey.. good discussion
But am still confused. Can someone guide me on the following:
How will the profiling system help the following-
1) The buyer hobbyist
2) the seller hobbyist
3) the seller businessman
here i mentioned only the profiling system and do not intend to confuse with any sort of rating system.
This is my opinion on how it will help.
1) The buyer hobbyist - you exactly know from whom you are buying, if its a hobbyist then probably the person has had the specimen fish for example for long its may be in good health. For products you may know if you will get warranty support, incase the product gets damaged in transit what will happen you can discus these things in advance. I am sure a hobbyist may not be able to provide you a replacement product, cause he may only have one of it and has sold it to you without any business interest in mind, so ethically thats a deal you have struck between yourself Vs a seller businessman to whom you can demand insurance, warranty and other things cause that is part of the business.
2) The Seller Hobbyist - He will exactly know to whom he is selling. A hobbyist may perhaps give him a better price or the hobbyist may want to help the other hobbyist and not sell it to a businessman. They have a choice.
3) The seller businessman - He will get an established identity, two business's may want to share stocks or become vendors for each other products, A rating system could be established in the future, A seller businessman selling to a seller businessman may not provide shipment insurance and may have alternate methods of shipment vs to a hobbyist he can provide insurances and warranties accordingly. Direct or indirect. Also if the new legislation falls in place, if you are buying from a businessman you will have to aquire certain certificates which will determine the exact source of procurement, also if its wild caught or bred, the businessman may have to aquire certain information with regards to your tank and specifications etc.
So all of these may help each individuals in having more transparent, know what you will get deals and will have lesser sour experiences in my opinion.
However pros or cons to individuals may vary in their own term.
btw in WTS-Hobbyist Only forum, Seller is needed to be a hobbyist or the buyer
Niranjan, the idea is that this transaction needs to be between Hobbyist's............. i.e both seller and buying are hobbyist.
I agree with Nirav's thoughts.
Take for example, a person "A" who is interested in a variety of fish/plant which he has not kept before. So, he does not know the actual/approximate cost for the same. A hobbyist like person A buys from the WTS forum, thinking that the seller is also a hobbyist, not keen on making a heft profit, and hence has an inherent assurence that he is not paying a lot extra for that fish. Now if a bussiness-man post's the same fish for sale in WTS section, you can be assured that he is looking for some decent profit in that , since he only buys and tries to immediatley sell. So if that businessman is disguised as a hobbyist and posts it in WTS forum, instead of LFS Announcement forum, our poor person A will buy that fish at a much higher cost, thinking that it's the cheapest/correct cost.
I feel, a simple profiling would help ( at least ) the new buyers, to help know whom are they buying from ( a hobbyist or a LFS guy ) and would inherently understand the extra/nominal cost that he would be paying.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
I very strongly believe that profiling is not good for the hobby and also not for this forum unless we want prejudice and rudeness at every turn of page. This is nothing but a simple hobby for most of us. For some people like me it is a case of our livelihood too. Any serious entity doing business in the field will always say that he is a businessman. People doing part time/generating money for their needs what that may be, are individuals who are hesitant to the idea of imaging themselves as a business unit, at the worst. Why take the trouble to sit and identify who is who and make people unnecessarily uncomfortable at the very beginning?
Joined: Feb 24, 2007 Posts: 4066 Location: Miyapur, Hyderabad
Status: Offline
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
During my stay in IAH for last couple of years, I found 3 categories in this segment.
1. Hobbyists Sellers:
A. Who only sells whatever is growing or multiplying in his tank to cover up the expense of his hobby.
B. Or whatever he had in extra (Lets say, extra food, unused accesorries) and what he purchased with hard earned money.
2. Pure Business Guy:
Who are here to sell products and making profits. Mainly thats their source of living. They participate in hobbyists talk but never mix hobby with business. Very clear/transparent guys they are.
3. Hidden Sellers/Middle Man:
This is the most smoky part of this community. They sell what is multiplying in their tanks + Act like a middle man between a Seller(Who is not part of IAH) and the buyer. And get comission/cut money out of the deal. Sometimes selling products saying extra stock, but that's just a bluff. They never exposed themselves as a money makers.
Identifying this 3rd category, without spilling blood, will be a tough job for anyone.
Last edited by Tirtha C on Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
As a pure hobbyist, here are my 50 paisa.
This site is a great place and a major knowledge store. It would not have been possible for the site to be this way if it is not for the effort of the professionals who are genuinely interested in the trade. I have met very few and can say their passion for trade is very high and their interest to help goes beyond commercial interests.
As a hobbyist, I am open to both buying from a hobbyist and a professional, but yes I would like to know if I am buying from a fellow hobbyist or a professional. This is just to ascertain what interests other side has in mind and if need be bargain accordingly
If I have to sell, unless it is a very high value item, I may prefer giving away or exchanging with a fellow hobbyist, but again that is my personal opinion. I may also help any new hobbyist to help improve his tank if he needs something from my tank. However for a professional I may not do that, for the simple reason the transaction is commercial. And all the time, I am a buyer from them.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
The forum has helped me get to know a lot of people, some really good hobbyists who have become great friends, and some, who are good businessmen, and i respect them for their services and quality products, and the last category, who call themselves as hobbyists, but actually prey on the gullible to make some extra money.
The forum has helped me get to know a lot of people, some really good hobbyists who have become great friends, and some, who are good businessmen, and i respect them for their services and quality products, and the last category, who call themselves as hobbyists, but actually prey on the gullible to make some extra money.
Same with all I believe.
Just by reading many of the posts in this thread, you can understand that people in general are prejudiced already with the following burned into their minds:
1. business only person=quick profits and hefty price
2. hobbyist selling surplus=cheap
Thats not completely true. Expensive hobbyists and reliable sales people are there too.
More than these categories, making friends in the hobby would take a person a long way I feel.
BTW, even after creating these categories, people are still going sell their stock at the price that they deem right and buyers are going to pick up what is affordable and they think is worth
Just by reading many of the posts in this thread, you can understand that people in general are prejudiced already with the following burned into their minds:
i doubt people in general are prejudiced, its just what u are reading into.
1. business only person=quick profits and hefty price
i doubt that, when some one runs a full time business, he doesn't run it for social service, but for profit and living and other than the profit there are so many overheads too, and this we as buyers should remember and not criticize them for it, but there are some, who will sell goods which are defective, or diseased fish, quite very much in knowledge, now those are the guys we have to avoid
i really doubt that happens, but u can't deny when goods come from a hobbyist, they are always cheap else they are usually equivalent to what they would have paid for or a little more.
the important factor of profiling here is to identify people who neither are selling as hobbyists nor as businessmen, but as middlemen, trying to make a little on the side by just interacting between two people, i have burnt my fingers so, feels quite aggravating to later learn that some *&*%^&% took u for a ride.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
Quote:
the important factor of profiling here is to identify people who neither are selling as hobbyists nor as businessmen, but as middlemen, trying to make a little on the side by just interacting between two people, i have burnt my fingers so, feels quite aggravating to later learn that some *&*%^&% took u for a ride.
Jib exactly what i wanted to bring out, this has happened to a lot of hobbyist around here some have figured it out later like you have and there are someone who are still thinking that its all happening in the noble name of the hobby, its only when something goes sour one talks out.
Talking of my own personal experience we as a company and myself have never linked the hobby or the business together. I share my personal experience and if someone ask me for a feedback of a product I will give it basis either my experience or as a businessman, since the buyer knows clearly i am a businessman they can judge and make a choice basis that and probably will seek a second opinion from a hobbyist and wont trust my words completely. This ensures what he is buying is correct. What may happen here is the hobbyist he is consulting may eventually say that hey dont worry i will get the same thing for you at a cheaper price. There are so many proclaimed hobbyist who buy products from us and then sell it ahead. They enjoy the wholesale price from us and will sell it at lower margins since overheads other wise is zero, operate from home, pick from our store go straight to courier vendor and ship. Zero Cost, No taxes paid. When the product arrives damaged the poor hobbyist who received it has no where to go cause the person actually did a favour by sendin it infact, where as it would be the right of the hobbyist to ask for a replacement of the damaged products since it got damaged cause it wasnt packed well. This is just an example i am quoting, i am sure a lot of us have gone through this.
So i dont see any harm in profiling a hobbyist or an LFS / Business cause i am sure legitimate businesses and hobbyist will have no prejudice or throw flames at calling themselves what they do, Yes the grey guys in there will definitely have a lot to think about. Cause one or two deals may go under the belt but eventually someones going to shout out loud.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
My question remains.
Unless we have a valid feedback system {Ideally not susceptible to vote manipulation} in place what stops the "Grey guys" from continuing to deal as hobbyists? They will profile themselves as hobbyists and continue with their practice
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
@drug
Profiling will be the first step towards a Rating system i feel. Also after profiling, if the grey guys list themselves as hobbyist the fear will always be there as and when the rating system falls in plays, lies will be caught. So Step one is profiling and the gradual or natural step after that should be Rating system. I think the rating system should be looked upon as a feedback system, since it gives the other an opportunity to improve their operations.
@drug Profiling will be the first step towards a Rating system i feel. Also after profiling, if the grey guys list themselves as hobbyist the fear will always be there as and when the rating system falls in plays, lies will be caught. So Step one is profiling and the gradual or natural step after that should be Rating system. I think the rating system should be looked upon as a feedback system, since it gives the other an opportunity to improve their operations.
Okay
Since Ravi has said its being considered we just have to wait and see how it works out in the "real world scenario"
By the way my signature mentions my name. I don't call you Nash , do I?
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