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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
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Profiling of Members. - A suggestion.
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nash81
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 Hi,
 
 The  intention  of  the  profiling  system  is  to  distinguish  between  a  business  person  vs  a  hobbyist.  There  are  several  rules  and  regulations  that  are  followed  on  our  forum  itself,  to  name  one  LFS  annoucements  where  one  is  allowed  to  post  only  on  Sundays  Vs  a  hobbyist  who  can  post  on  any  given  day  on  the  WTS  /   WTB  section.  I  dont  see  how  profiling  will  affect  any  hobbyist  is  any  way  since  he  is  going  to  profile  himself  as  a  hobbyist.  So  if  he  is  selling  any  of  his  personal  things,  he  is  anyways  selling  it  as  a  hobbyist.  A  hobbyist  can  offcourse  sell  his  things  at  a  margin  considering  if  its  something  rare  the  amount  of  effort  he  has  put  in  acquiring  it,  his  purchase  cost  etc  etc.  If  you  are  discarding  your  used  or  may  be  new  bought  product  which  probably  you  have  no  use  for  now,  no  harm  is  selling  that.  So  there  if  you  are  profiled  as  a  hobbyist  whats  wrong  with  it  and  why  would  you  have  any  issues  with  it?
 
 However  if  you  are  a  businessman  who  is  selling  his  personal  stuff  that  is  used  in  the  hobby,  oh  come  on,  no  business  man  who  if  in  his  business  would  get  more  money  selling  the  product  would  sell  it  cheaper  here!  Lets  be  factual  guys,  even  if  a  hobbyist  gets  a  better  deal  elsewhere  than  here  he/she  will  sell  it  for  a  better  price
 
 So  i  dont  see  why  a  hobbyist  would  have  any  issues  being  called  a  hobbyist,  why  a  ethical  business  man  would  have  any  issues  being  called  a  business  man,  however  its  the  grey  guys  that  need  to  come  out  white  in  the  open  and  not  make  victims  of  the  hobbyist.  If  you  are  making  money  out  of  any  deal,  you  are  simply  and  in  plain  terms  doing  business.  Own  it  up  is  all  i  am  trying  to  say  in  the  profiling  system.  If  you  are  not  an  LFS,  then  the  profiling  system  can  call  you  an  hobbyist  with  business  interest  too  and  call  an  LFS  a  LFS.  I  am  sure  no  one  here  would  enjoy  buying  a  fish  from  someone  who  claims  it  comes  out  from  his  own  tank  and  is  quarantine  and  all  of  that  jazz  however  it  truly  just  came  out  of  an  LFS  tank  where  the  proclaimed  hobbyist  just  struck  a  better  deal  than  you  and  you  paid  a  better  price  for  it  thinking  its  coming  out  of  his  tank  safe  and  sound.  
 
 There  are  a  few  people  who  are  execeptions  to  a  lot  of  things  and  i  am  not  refering  to  any  individuals  or  exceptions  to  what  i  have  said  above.  This  is  for  the  larger  consortium.  Also  i  am  not  the  one  who  is  going  to  say  implement  the  system,  its  eventually  a  call  that  the  Site  owners  and  admins  have  to  take.  I  am  just  seeking  opinions  and  healthy  discussions  with  no  pun  intended.
 
 @all
 
 This  is  a  thread  only  for  discussion  and  not  to  vent  our  personal  deals  gone  sour,  in  the  interest  of  keeping  the  conversation  healthy  lets  not  discuss  how  personal  deals  went  or  what  happened.  We  all  know  that  this  happens  and  since  many  hobbyist  spoke  to  me  about  this  i  started  this  thread.
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Gulls
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 Hey..  good  discussion
 But  am  still  confused.  Can  someone  guide  me  on  the  following:
 
 How  will  the  profiling  system  help  the  following-
 
 1)  The  buyer  hobbyist
 2)  the  seller  hobbyist
 3)  the  seller  businessman
 
 
 here  i  mentioned  only  the  profiling  system  and  do  not  intend  to  confuse  with  any  sort  of  rating  system.
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nash81
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
Gulls  wrote  (View  Post):                
Hey..  good  discussion
 But  am  still  confused.  Can  someone  guide  me  on  the  following:
 
 How  will  the  profiling  system  help  the  following-
 
 1)  The  buyer  hobbyist
 2)  the  seller  hobbyist
 3)  the  seller  businessman
 
 
 here  i  mentioned  only  the  profiling  system  and  do  not  intend  to  confuse  with  any  sort  of  rating  system.                

 
 This  is  my  opinion  on  how  it  will  help.
 
 1)  The  buyer  hobbyist  -  you  exactly  know  from  whom  you  are  buying,  if  its  a  hobbyist  then  probably  the  person  has  had  the  specimen  fish  for  example  for  long  its  may  be  in  good  health.  For  products  you  may  know  if  you  will  get  warranty  support,  incase  the  product  gets  damaged  in  transit  what  will  happen  you  can  discus  these  things  in  advance.  I  am  sure  a  hobbyist  may  not  be  able  to  provide  you  a  replacement  product,  cause  he  may  only  have  one  of  it  and  has  sold  it  to  you  without  any  business  interest  in  mind,  so  ethically  thats  a  deal  you  have  struck  between  yourself  Vs  a  seller  businessman  to  whom  you  can  demand  insurance,  warranty  and  other  things  cause  that  is  part  of  the  business.
 
 2)  The  Seller  Hobbyist  -  He  will  exactly  know  to  whom  he  is  selling.  A  hobbyist  may  perhaps  give  him  a  better  price  or  the  hobbyist  may  want  to  help  the  other  hobbyist  and  not  sell  it  to  a  businessman.  They  have  a  choice.
 
 3)  The  seller  businessman  -  He  will  get  an  established  identity,  two  business's  may  want  to  share  stocks  or  become  vendors  for  each  other  products,  A  rating  system  could  be  established  in  the  future,  A  seller  businessman  selling  to  a  seller  businessman  may  not  provide  shipment  insurance  and  may  have  alternate  methods  of  shipment  vs  to  a  hobbyist  he  can  provide  insurances  and  warranties  accordingly.  Direct  or  indirect.  Also  if  the  new  legislation  falls  in  place,  if  you  are  buying  from  a  businessman  you  will  have  to  aquire  certain  certificates  which  will  determine  the  exact  source  of  procurement,  also  if  its  wild  caught  or  bred,  the  businessman  may  have  to  aquire  certain  information  with  regards  to  your  tank  and  specifications  etc.
 
 So  all  of  these  may  help  each  individuals  in  having  more  transparent,  know  what  you  will  get  deals  and  will  have  lesser  sour  experiences  in  my  opinion.
 
 However  pros  or  cons  to  individuals  may  vary  in  their  own  term.
 
 Warm  Regards
 Nirav  Shah
 www.indiapetstore.com
 www.freshnmarine.in
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Linelogic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
niroo  wrote  (View  Post):                
i  second  Vignesh...
 
 btw  in  WTS-Hobbyist  Only  forum,  Seller  is  needed  to  be  a  hobbyist  or  the  buyer                

 
 Niranjan,  the  idea  is  that  this  transaction  needs  to  be  between  Hobbyist's.............  i.e  both  seller  and  buying  are  hobbyist.
 
 I  agree  with  Nirav's  thoughts.  
 Take  for  example,  a  person  "A"  who  is  interested  in  a  variety  of  fish/plant  which  he  has  not  kept  before.  So,  he  does  not  know  the  actual/approximate  cost  for  the  same.  A  hobbyist  like  person  A  buys  from  the  WTS  forum,  thinking  that  the  seller  is  also  a  hobbyist,  not  keen  on  making  a  heft  profit,  and  hence  has  an  inherent  assurence  that  he  is  not  paying  a  lot  extra  for  that  fish.   Now  if  a  bussiness-man  post's  the  same  fish  for  sale  in  WTS  section,  you  can  be  assured  that  he  is  looking  for  some  decent  profit  in  that  ,  since  he  only  buys  and  tries  to  immediatley  sell.  So  if  that  businessman  is  disguised  as  a  hobbyist  and  posts  it  in  WTS  forum,  instead  of  LFS  Announcement  forum,  our  poor  person  A  will  buy  that  fish  at  a  much  higher  cost,  thinking  that  it's  the  cheapest/correct  cost.  
 
      I  feel,  a  simple  profiling  would  help  (  at  least  )  the  new  buyers,  to  help  know  whom  are  they  buying  from   (  a  hobbyist  or  a  LFS  guy  )  and  would  inherently  understand  the  extra/nominal  cost  that  he  would  be  paying.   
 
 Prabhu
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Severumkid
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 I  very  strongly  believe  that  profiling  is  not  good  for  the  hobby  and  also  not  for  this  forum  unless  we  want  prejudice  and  rudeness  at  every  turn  ¬†of  page.  This  is  nothing  but  a  simple  hobby  for  most  of  us.  For  some  people  like  me  it  is  a  case  of  our  livelihood  too.  Any  serious  entity  doing  business  in  the  field  will  always  say  that  he  is  a  businessman.  People  doing  part  time/generating  money  for  their  needs  what  that  may  be,  are  individuals  who  are  hesitant  to  the  idea  of  imaging  themselves  as  a  business  unit,  at  the  worst.  Why  take  the  trouble  to  sit  and  identify  who  is  who  and  make  people  unnecessarily  uncomfortable  at  the  very  beginning?  
 
 It  is  kind  of  a  caste  system.
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Tirtha C
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 During  my  stay  in  IAH  for  last  couple  of  years,  I  found  3  categories  in  this  segment.
 
 1.  Hobbyists  Sellers:  
 
 A.  Who  only  sells  whatever  is  growing  or  multiplying  in  his  tank  to  cover  up  the  expense  of  his  hobby.  
 B.  Or  whatever  he  had  in  extra  (Lets  say,  extra  food,  unused  accesorries)  and  what  he  purchased  with  hard  earned  money.
 
 2.  Pure  Business  Guy:  
 
 Who  are  here  to  sell  products  and  making  profits.  Mainly  thats  their  source  of  living.  They  participate  in  hobbyists  talk  but  never  mix  hobby  with  business.  Very  clear/transparent  guys  they  are.
 
 3.  Hidden  Sellers/Middle  Man:
 
 This  is  the  most  smoky  part  of  this  community.  They  sell  what  is  multiplying  in  their  tanks  +  Act  like  a  middle  man  between  a  Seller(Who  is  not  part  of  IAH)  and  the  buyer.  And  get  comission/cut  money  out  of  the  deal.  Sometimes  selling  products  saying  extra  stock,  but  that's  just  a  bluff.  They  never  exposed  themselves  as  a  money  makers.  
 
 Identifying  this  3rd  category,  without  spilling  blood,  will  be  a  tough  job  for  anyone.


Last edited by Tirtha C on Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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djay
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 As  a  pure  hobbyist,  here  are  my  50  paisa.  
 
 This  site  is  a  great  place  and  a  major  knowledge  store.  It  would  not  have  been  possible  for  the  site  to  be  this  way  if  it  is  not  for  the  effort  of  the  professionals  who  are  genuinely  interested  in  the  trade.  I  have  met  very  few  and  can  say  their  passion  for  trade  is  very  high  and  their  interest  to  help  goes  beyond  commercial  interests.
 
 As  a  hobbyist,  I  am  open  to  both  buying  from  a  hobbyist  and  a  professional,  but  yes  I  would  like  to  know  if  I  am  buying  from  a  fellow  hobbyist  or  a  professional.  This  is  just  to  ascertain  what  interests  other  side  has  in  mind  and  if  need  be  bargain  accordingly   
 
 If  I  have  to  sell,  unless  it  is  a  very  high  value  item,  I  may  prefer  giving  away  or  exchanging  with  a  fellow  hobbyist,  but  again  that  is  my  personal  opinion.  I  may  also  help  any  new  hobbyist  to  help  improve  his  tank  if  he  needs  something  from  my  tank.  However  for  a  professional  I  may  not  do  that,  for  the  simple  reason  the  transaction  is  commercial.  And  all  the  time,  I  am  a  buyer  from  them.
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headbanger_jib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 The  forum  has  helped  me  get  to  know  a  lot  of  people,  some  really  good  hobbyists  who  have  become  great  friends,  and  some,  who  are  good  businessmen,  and  i  respect  them  for  their  services  and  quality  products,  and  the  last  category,  who  call  themselves  as  hobbyists,  but  actually  prey  on  the  gullible  to  make  some  extra  money.
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bmvbab
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
headbanger_jib  wrote  (View  Post):                
The  forum  has  helped  me  get  to  know  a  lot  of  people,  some  really  good  hobbyists  who  have  become  great  friends,  and  some,  who  are  good  businessmen,  and  i  respect  them  for  their  services  and  quality  products,  and  the  last  category,  who  call  themselves  as  hobbyists,  but  actually  prey  on  the  gullible  to  make  some  extra  money.                

 
 Same  with  all  I  believe.
 
 Just  by  reading  many  of  the  posts  in  this  thread,  you  can  understand  that  people  in  general  are  prejudiced  already  with  the  following  burned  into  their  minds:
 1.  business  only  person=quick  profits  and  hefty  price
 2.  hobbyist  selling  surplus=cheap
 
 Thats  not  completely  true.  Expensive  hobbyists  and  reliable  sales  people  are  there  too.
 
 More  than  these  categories,  making  friends  in  the  hobby  would  take  a  person  a  long  way  I  feel.
 
 BTW,  even  after  creating  these  categories,  people  are  still  going  sell  their  stock  at  the  price  that  they  deem  right  and  buyers  are  going  to  pick  up  what  is  affordable  and  they  think  is  worth  Smile
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headbanger_jib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
bmvbab  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Same  with  all  I  believe.                

 yes  could  be  
 
 
                                                 
bmvbab  wrote  (View  Post):                
Just  by  reading  many  of  the  posts  in  this  thread,  you  can  understand  that  people  in  general  are  prejudiced  already  with  the  following  burned  into  their  minds:                

 i  doubt  people  in  general  are  prejudiced,  its  just  what  u  are  reading  into.
 
 
                                                 
bmvbab  wrote  (View  Post):                
1.  business  only  person=quick  profits  and  hefty  price                

 i  doubt  that,  when  some  one  runs  a  full  time  business,  he  doesn't  run  it  for  social  service,  but  for  profit  and  living  and  other  than  the  profit  there  are  so  many  overheads  too,  and  this  we  as  buyers  should  remember  and  not  criticize  them  for  it,  but  there  are  some,  who  will  sell  goods  which  are  defective,  or  diseased  fish,  quite  very  much  in  knowledge,  now  those  are  the  guys  we  have  to  avoid
 
 
                                                 
bmvbab  wrote  (View  Post):                
2.  hobbyist  selling  surplus=cheap                

 i  really  doubt  that  happens,  but  u  can't  deny  when  goods  come  from  a  hobbyist,  they  are  always  cheap  else  they  are  usually  equivalent  to  what  they  would  have  paid  for  or  a  little  more.
 
 the  important  factor  of  profiling  here  is  to  identify  people  who  neither  are  selling  as  hobbyists  nor  as  businessmen,  but  as  middlemen,  trying  to  make  a  little  on  the  side  by  just  interacting  between  two  people,  i  have  burnt  my  fingers  so,  feels  quite  aggravating  to  later  learn  that  some  *&*%^&%  took  u  for  a  ride.
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nash81
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
Quote:                
the  important  factor  of  profiling  here  is  to  identify  people  who  neither  are  selling  as  hobbyists  nor  as  businessmen,  but  as  middlemen,  trying  to  make  a  little  on  the  side  by  just  interacting  between  two  people,  i  have  burnt  my  fingers  so,  feels  quite  aggravating  to  later  learn  that  some  *&*%^&%  took  u  for  a  ride.                

 
 Jib  exactly  what  i  wanted  to  bring  out,  this  has  happened  to  a  lot  of  hobbyist  around  here  some  have  figured  it  out  later  like  you  have  and  there  are  someone  who  are  still  thinking  that  its  all  happening  in  the  noble  name  of  the  hobby,  its  only  when  something  goes  sour  one  talks  out.
 
 Talking  of  my  own  personal  experience  we  as  a  company  and  myself  have  never  linked  the  hobby  or  the  business  together.  I  share  my  personal  experience  and  if  someone  ask  me  for  a  feedback  of  a  product  I  will  give  it  basis  either  my  experience  or  as  a  businessman,  since  the  buyer  knows  clearly  i  am  a  businessman  they  can  judge  and  make  a  choice  basis  that  and  probably  will  seek  a  second  opinion  from  a  hobbyist  and  wont  trust  my  words  completely.  This  ensures  what  he  is  buying  is  correct.  What  may  happen  here  is  the  hobbyist  he  is  consulting  may  eventually  say  that  hey  dont  worry  i  will  get  the  same  thing  for  you  at  a  cheaper  price.  There  are  so  many  proclaimed  hobbyist  who  buy  products  from  us  and  then  sell  it  ahead.  They  enjoy  the  wholesale  price  from  us  and  will  sell  it  at  lower  margins  since  overheads  other  wise  is  zero,  operate  from  home,  pick  from  our  store  go  straight  to  courier  vendor  and  ship.  Zero  Cost,  No  taxes  paid.  When  the  product  arrives  damaged  the  poor  hobbyist  who  received  it  has  no  where  to  go  cause  the  person  actually  did  a  favour  by  sendin  it  infact,  where  as  it  would  be  the  right  of  the  hobbyist  to  ask  for  a  replacement  of  the  damaged  products  since  it  got  damaged  cause  it  wasnt  packed  well.  This  is  just  an  example  i  am  quoting,  i  am  sure  a  lot  of  us  have  gone  through  this.  
 
 So  i  dont  see  any  harm  in  profiling  a  hobbyist  or  an  LFS  /  Business  cause  i  am  sure  legitimate  businesses  and  hobbyist  will  have  no  prejudice  or  throw  flames  at  calling  themselves  what  they  do,  Yes  the  grey  guys  in  there  will  definitely  have  a  lot  to  think  about.  Cause  one  or  two  deals  may  go  under  the  belt  but  eventually  someones  going  to  shout  out  loud.
 
 Warm  Regards
 Nirav  Shah
 www.indiapetstore.com
 www.freshnmarine.in
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drug
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 My  question  remains.
 Unless  we  have  a  valid  feedback  system  {Ideally  not  susceptible  to  vote  manipulation}  in  place  what  stops  the  "Grey  guys"  from  continuing  to  deal  as  hobbyists?  They  will  profile  themselves  as  hobbyists  and  continue  with  their  practice
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nash81
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 @drug
 
 Profiling  will  be  the  first  step  towards  a  Rating  system  i  feel.  Also  after  profiling,  if  the  grey  guys  list  themselves  as  hobbyist  the  fear  will  always  be  there  as  and  when  the  rating  system  falls  in  plays,  lies  will  be  caught.  So  Step  one  is  profiling  and  the  gradual  or  natural  step  after  that  should  be  Rating  system.  I  think  the  rating  system  should  be  looked  upon  as  a  feedback  system,  since  it  gives  the  other  an  opportunity  to  improve  their  operations.
 
 Warm  Regards
 Nirav  Shah
 www.indiapetstore.com
 www.freshnmarine.in
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drug
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

                                                   
nash81  wrote  (View  Post):                
 @drug  Profiling  will  be  the  first  step  towards  a  Rating  system  i  feel.  Also  after  profiling,  if  the  grey  guys  list  themselves  as  hobbyist  the  fear  will  always  be  there  as  and  when  the  rating  system  falls  in  plays,  lies  will  be  caught.  So  Step  one  is  profiling  and  the  gradual  or  natural  step  after  that  should  be  Rating  system.  I  think  the  rating  system  should  be  looked  upon  as  a  feedback  system,  since  it  gives  the  other  an  opportunity  to  improve  their  operations.                  

 
 Okay
 Since  Ravi  has  said  its  being  considered  we  just  have  to  wait  and  see  how  it  works  out  in  the  "real  world  scenario"
 
 
 By  the  way  my  signature  mentions  my  name.  I  don't  call  you  Nash  ,  do  I?
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nash81
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Profiling of Members. - A suggestion. Reply with quote

 Hey  Unni,
 
 Sorry  for  that,  was  not  intentional  just  typed  it  in  a  hurry  Smile  and  you  can  call  me  nash  Smile  no  problem  at  all.  its  a  short  for  my  full  name.
 
 Warm  Regards
 Nirav  Shah
 www.indiapetstore.com
 www.freshnmarine.in
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