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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - Generation of Alochol in aquariums
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Generation of Alochol in aquariums
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Don't  run  the  CO2  cylinder  24X7  ,,,  its  leads  to  anaerobic   decomposition  and  end  product  would  be  ALCOHOL.  Sad
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

                                                   
sasi_k  wrote  (View  Post):                
Don't  run  the  CO2  cylinder  24X7  ,,,  its  leads  to  anaerobic   decomposition  and  end  product  would  be  ALCOHOL.  Sad                

 
 What  exactly  in  aquarium  will  turn  into  alcohol,  fish,  substrate,  plants,  or   water  and  how?
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 I  AM  GLAD  YOU  HAVE  ASKED  THAT.
 well,  to  describe  that  in  here  would  be  like  i  describing  things  at  a  fermentation  industry  or  taking  a  45mins  lecture,  ITS  THAT  COMPLEX.  You  could  go  through  this  book  "Lehninger  PRINCIPLES  OF  BIOCHEMISTRY".
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

                                                   
sasi_k  wrote  (View  Post):                
I  AM  GLAD  YOU  HAVE  ASKED  THAT.
 well,  to  describe  that  in  here  would  be  like  i  describing  things  at  a  fermentation  industry  or  taking  a  45mins  lecture,  ITS  THAT  COMPLEX.  You  could  go  through  this  book  "Lehninger  PRINCIPLES  OF  BIOCHEMISTRY".                

 Well,  if  you  putting  up  a  fact  which  is  unheard  of  aquarium  circles  you  should  be  prepared  to  back  it  up  with  facts.
 As  far  as  I  know  there  is  no  component  in  a  aquarium  in  sufficient  concentration  for  fermentation  to  begin.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Totally  agree  with  Sandeep..  Well  at  least  you  can  give  a  simplified  theory..  Right?
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Well,  quite  agreed  to  that,  sandeep  and  nidhi.  I  am  little  busy  preparing  for  a  interview  ,  it's  on  22nd  this  month.  So,  is  it  fine  if  I  can  give-in  the  details  regd  the  same  after  22nd?   Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 FATES  OF  PYRUVATE  UNDER  ANAEROBIC  CONDITIONS;FERMENTATION
 Under  aerobic  conditions,  the  pyruvate  formed  in  the
 final  step  of  glycolysis  is  oxidized  to  acetate  (acetyl-
 CoA),  which  enters  the  citric  acid  cycle  and  is  oxidized
 to  CO2  and  H2O.  The  NADH  formed  by  dehydrogenation
 of  glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate  is  ultimately  reoxidized
 to  NAD  by  passage  of  its  electrons  to  O2  in  mitochondrial
 respiration.  Under  hypoxic  (low-oxygen)  conditions,
 however—as  in  very  active  skeletal  muscle,  in
 submerged  plant  tissues,  solid  tumors,  or  in  lactic  acid
 bacteria—NADH  generated  by  glycolysis  cannot  be  reoxidized
 by  O2.  Failure  to  regenerate  NAD  would  leave
 the  cell  with  no  electron  acceptor  for  the  oxidation  of
 glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate,  and  the  energy-yielding
 reactions  of  glycolysis  would  stop.  NAD  must  therefore
 be  regenerated  in  some  other  way.
 The  earliest  cells  lived  in  an  atmosphere  almost  devoid
 of  oxygen  and  had  to  develop  strategies  for  deriving
 energy  from  fuel  molecules  under  anaerobic  conditions.
 Most  modern  organisms  have  retained  the  ability  to  continually
 regenerate  NAD  during  anaerobic  glycolysis
 by  transferring  electrons  from  NADH  to  form  a  reduced
 end  product  such  as  lactate  or  ethanol.
 
 
 When  animal  tissues  cannot  be  supplied  with  sufficient
 oxygen  to  support  aerobic  oxidation  of  the  pyruvate  and
 NADH  produced  in  glycolysis,  NAD  is  regenerated
 from  NADH  by  the  reduction  of  pyruvate  to  lactate.  As
 mentioned  earlier,  some  tissues  and  cell  types  (such  as
 erythrocytes,  which  have  no  mitochondria  and  thus  cannot
 oxidize  pyruvate  to  CO2)  produce  lactate  from  glucose
 even  under  aerobic  conditions.  The  reduction  of
 pyruvate  in  this  pathway  is  catalyzed  by  lactate  dehydrogenase,
 which  forms  the  L  isomer  of  lactate  at  pH  7:
 The  overall  equilibrium  of  the  reaction  strongly  favors
 lactate  formation,  as  shown  by  the  large  negative  standard
 free-energy  change.
 In  glycolysis,  dehydrogenation  of  the  two  molecules
 of  glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate  derived  from  each  molecule
 of  glucose  converts  two  molecules  of  NAD  to  two
 of  NADH.  Because  the  reduction  of  two  molecules  of
 pyruvate  to  two  of  lactate  regenerates  two  molecules  of
 NAD,  there  is  no  net  change  in  NAD  or  NADH:
 The  lactate  formed  by  active  skeletal  muscles  (or  by
 erythrocytes)  can  be  recycled;  it  is  carried  in  the  blood
 to  the  liver,  where  it  is  converted  to  glucose  during  the
 recovery  from  strenuous  muscular  activity.  When  lactate
 is  produced  in  large  quantities  during  vigorous  muscle
 contraction  (during  a  sprint,  for  example),  the
 acidification  that  results  from  ionization  of  lactic  acid  in
 muscle  and  blood  limits  the  period  of  vigorous  activity.
 The  best-conditioned  athletes  can  sprint  at  top  speed
 for  no  more  than  a  minute  (Box  14–2).
 Although  conversion  of  glucose  to  lactate  includes
 two  oxidation-reduction  steps,  there  is  no  net  change  in
 the  oxidation  state  of  carbon;  in  glucose  (C6H12O6)  and
 lactic  acid  (C3H6O3),  the  H:C  ratio  is  the  same.  Nevertheless,
 some  of  the  energy  of  the  glucose  molecule  has
 been  extracted  by  its  conversion  to  lactate—enough  to
 give  a  net  yield  of  two  molecules  of  ATP  for  every  glucose
 molecule  consumed.  Fermentation  is  the  general
 term  for  such  processes,  which  extract  energy  (as  ATP)
 but  do  not  consume  oxygen  or  change  the  concentrations
 of  NAD  or  NADH.  Fermentations  are  carried  out
 by  a  wide  range  of  organisms,  many  of  which  occupy
 anaerobic  niches,  and  they  yield  a  variety  of  end  products,
 some  of  which  find  commercial  uses.
 
 (JUST  AN  OVERVIEW)   Smile
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

                                                   
sasi_k  wrote  (View  Post):                
FATES  OF  PYRUVATE  UNDER  ANAEROBIC  CONDITIONS;FERMENTATION
 Under  aerobic  conditions,  the  pyruvate  formed  in  the
 final  step  of  glycolysis  is  oxidized  to  acetate  (acetyl-
 CoA),  which  enters  the  citric  acid  cycle  and  is  oxidized
 to  CO2  and  H2O.  The  NADH  formed  by  dehydrogenation
 of  glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate  is  ultimately  reoxidized
 to  NAD  by  passage  of  its  electrons  to  O2  in  mitochondrial
 respiration.  Under  hypoxic  (low-oxygen)  conditions,
 however—as  in  very  active  skeletal  muscle,  in
 submerged  plant  tissues,  solid  tumors,  or  in  lactic  acid
 bacteria—NADH  generated  by  glycolysis  cannot  be  reoxidized
 by  O2.  Failure  to  regenerate  NAD  would  leave
 the  cell  with  no  electron  acceptor  for  the  oxidation  of
 glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate,  and  the  energy-yielding
 reactions  of  glycolysis  would  stop.  NAD  must  therefore
 be  regenerated  in  some  other  way.
 The  earliest  cells  lived  in  an  atmosphere  almost  devoid
 of  oxygen  and  had  to  develop  strategies  for  deriving
 energy  from  fuel  molecules  under  anaerobic  conditions.
 Most  modern  organisms  have  retained  the  ability  to  continually
 regenerate  NAD  during  anaerobic  glycolysis
 by  transferring  electrons  from  NADH  to  form  a  reduced
 end  product  such  as  lactate  or  ethanol.
 
 
 When  animal  tissues  cannot  be  supplied  with  sufficient
 oxygen  to  support  aerobic  oxidation  of  the  pyruvate  and
 NADH  produced  in  glycolysis,  NAD  is  regenerated
 from  NADH  by  the  reduction  of  pyruvate  to  lactate.  As
 mentioned  earlier,  some  tissues  and  cell  types  (such  as
 erythrocytes,  which  have  no  mitochondria  and  thus  cannot
 oxidize  pyruvate  to  CO2)  produce  lactate  from  glucose
 even  under  aerobic  conditions.  The  reduction  of
 pyruvate  in  this  pathway  is  catalyzed  by  lactate  dehydrogenase,
 which  forms  the  L  isomer  of  lactate  at  pH  7:
 The  overall  equilibrium  of  the  reaction  strongly  favors
 lactate  formation,  as  shown  by  the  large  negative  standard
 free-energy  change.
 In  glycolysis,  dehydrogenation  of  the  two  molecules
 of  glyceraldehyde  3-phosphate  derived  from  each  molecule
 of  glucose  converts  two  molecules  of  NAD  to  two
 of  NADH.  Because  the  reduction  of  two  molecules  of
 pyruvate  to  two  of  lactate  regenerates  two  molecules  of
 NAD,  there  is  no  net  change  in  NAD  or  NADH:
 The  lactate  formed  by  active  skeletal  muscles  (or  by
 erythrocytes)  can  be  recycled;  it  is  carried  in  the  blood
 to  the  liver,  where  it  is  converted  to  glucose  during  the
 recovery  from  strenuous  muscular  activity.  When  lactate
 is  produced  in  large  quantities  during  vigorous  muscle
 contraction  (during  a  sprint,  for  example),  the
 acidification  that  results  from  ionization  of  lactic  acid  in
 muscle  and  blood  limits  the  period  of  vigorous  activity.
 The  best-conditioned  athletes  can  sprint  at  top  speed
 for  no  more  than  a  minute  (Box  14–2).
 Although  conversion  of  glucose  to  lactate  includes
 two  oxidation-reduction  steps,  there  is  no  net  change  in
 the  oxidation  state  of  carbon;  in  glucose  (C6H12O6)  and
 lactic  acid  (C3H6O3),  the  H:C  ratio  is  the  same.  Nevertheless,
 some  of  the  energy  of  the  glucose  molecule  has
 been  extracted  by  its  conversion  to  lactate—enough  to
 give  a  net  yield  of  two  molecules  of  ATP  for  every  glucose
 molecule  consumed.  Fermentation  is  the  general
 term  for  such  processes,  which  extract  energy  (as  ATP)
 but  do  not  consume  oxygen  or  change  the  concentrations
 of  NAD  or  NADH.  Fermentations  are  carried  out
 by  a  wide  range  of  organisms,  many  of  which  occupy
 anaerobic  niches,  and  they  yield  a  variety  of  end  products,
 some  of  which  find  commercial  uses.
 
 (JUST  AN  OVERVIEW)   Smile                

 
 This  is  totally  irrelevant  to  discussion  at  hand  it  is  relates  to  breakdown  of  glucose  into  pryuvic  acid  and  related  reactions.
 How  and  why  are  they  going  to  occur  in  aquarium?
 The  key  question  which  I  had  asked  earlier  still  remains  unanswered.
 I  am  repeating  it  again.
 Fermentation  is  a  process  in  which  sugars,  carbohydrates  are  converted  into  alcohol  by  yeast  etc.  
 A  layman  example  is  production  of  Co2  using  sugar  &  yeast.  you  mix  a  sugar  with  water  and  put  activated  yeast  cells  in  the  solution.
 Reaction  starts  after  some  time  and  Co2  and  alcohol  are  produced.
 Now  it  is  a  well  documented  fact  that  if  Sugar  solution  is  very  weak  the  fermenting  process  will  not  start  at  all.
 You  need  a  critical  concentration  of  reactants  for  process  to  start.
 Now  we  come  back  to  my  question,  under  which  circumstances  will  we  have  desired  concentration  of  reactants  in  aquarium  for  fermentation  to  start.
 I  have  given  you  sufficient  reasons  s  to  why  fermentation  cannot  take  place  in  a  living  aquarium,  now  you  can  give  me  circumstances  in  which  such  a  reaction  will  start.
 So  far  I  have  not  heard  about  fermentation  taking  place  in  a  aquarium,  maybe  we  will  learn  something  today.  Smile
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 You  are  not  seeing  the  big  picture.  Glycolysis  is  one  cycle  that  most  of  the  heterotrops  use  to  yield  energy,  but  the  beauty  of  this  cycle  is  that  i  can  undergo  a  bifurcation  based  on  the  availability  of  oxygen(minute  levels  of  oxygen  can  also  lead  to  anaerobic  process  example  like,  you  keep  the  co2  on  during  dark  cycle  of  plants  where  they  no  longer  take  co2  but  in  turn  give  out  co2,  now  this  leads  to  depleted  levels  of  oxygen  and  the  process  shifts  to  an  anaerobic  state.)  to  aerobic  or  anaerobic  state...   
 
 
 so  you  see,     glycolysis  reaction  takes  place  in  all  heterotrophs(those  which  can-not  make  food  by  themselves  and  consume  complex  molecules  and  acquire  energy  while  they  break  that  complex  molecules  to  simpler  ones)
 ...
 fish,  microbes(  aerobes,  anaerobes  and  facultative  aerobes/anaerobes).
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mandragoran
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Well....I  run  my  CO2  24/7-  and  I  must  admit,  the  fish  do  look  a  little  tully  in  the  mornings.  You  may  have  something  there.
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Nidhi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Sasi,
    Ok..  lets  say  you  are  right  about  Glycolysis,  How  come  none  of  our  folks  in  aquarium  hobby  faced  such  cycle?
 There  are  people  who  don't  turn  off  their  co2  in  the  night  due  to  various  reasons,   Did  you  take  into  account  that  we  don't  switch  off  the  filtration  in  the  dark  cycle?  I  think  even  before  the  Glycolysis  would  occur  all  our  fish  should  be  dead,  since  they  are  not  much  affected..  there  must  be  enough  oxygen  to  avoid  the  dreaded  Glycolysis  cycle..   so  there  is  no  anaerobic  conditions  in  the  tanks  after  all..
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 Sugar  is  the  only  source  of  energy  in  the  closed  system  you  have  chose  to  imagine  on.  So  when  you  consider  "sugar  solution  weak"  that  means  that  there  isn't  enough  energy  source  for  the  yeast  to  feed  on.  But  what  of  an  open  system  like  an  aquarium.  there  is  always  plenty  of  source  of  food  for  the  microbes  or  fish  by  itself  living  init.
 so  your  considered  sugar  solution  in  the  aquarium  keeps  on  filling  itself  time  after  time  to  see  its  not  weak.And  life  inside  an  aquarium  always  has  food  to  keep  up  itself.  unless  they  hit  a  late  EXPONENTIAL  phase  or  STATIONARY  phase.
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on Co2 Kit Reply with quote

 I  don't  want  a  larger  picture,  I  am  only  talking  about  your  statement.
 
 
 
                                                 
sasi_k  wrote  (View  Post):                
Don't  run  the  CO2  cylinder  24X7  ,,,  its  leads  to  anaerobic   decomposition  and  end  product  would  be  ALCOHOL.  Sad                

 
 Now  without  going  into  too  much  detail,  just  tell  me   exactly  "WHAT"  is  going  to  decompose  in  my  aquarium  and  will  turn  to  alcohol.
 Around  the  globe  many  aquarists  are  running  Co2  24/7  and  none  has  reported  that  alcohol  has  formed  in  their  tank.
 Please  stick  to  specific  only.
 
 Use  of  high  sounding  terms  does  not  validate  your  claim.
 
 The  only  case  of  anaerobic  decomposition  in  aquariums  is  in  substrate  when  it  is  too  dense,  and  even  then  H2S  (Hygrogen  Sulphide0  forms  and  not  alchol
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Generation of Alochol in aquariums Reply with quote

 I  have  split  this  topic,  as  it  has  gone  of  to  a  tangent  from  original  topic.
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sasi_k
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Generation of Alochol in aquariums Reply with quote

 GO  TO  GOOGLE  ,,,  SEE  WHAT  IS  RESPIRATION.
 NEXT  WHAT  IS  AEROBIC  RESPIRATION  AND  WHAT  IS  ANAEROBIC  RESPIRATION.
 THEN  WHAT  IS  THE  END  PRODUCT  OF  ANAEROBIC  RESPIRATION.
 
 still  don't  get  it  ,,  then  get   into  fundamentals  of  ORGANIC  CHEMISTRY.
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