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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - My new Interest, Water chemistry control.
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My new Interest, Water chemistry control.
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 Just  a  word  of  caution,  we  are  discussing  hardness  of  water  based  upon  TDS  readings.  Smile  
 A  high  TDS  reading  can  be  also  because  of  dissolved  organics,  which  might  be  the  case  with  your  shrimp  tank.
 The  source  water  for  all  your  aquariums  must  be  same  so  the  hardness  must  be  same  for  all  tanks,  however  based  upon  your  water  change  frequency  the  organic  content  will  change.
 This  might  be  reason  for  a  wide  variation  of  TDS  readings  in  your  aquariums.
 Would  be  interested  to  know  the  GH,  Kh  of  your  different  tanks.
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valluvar
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 @  Nayak,
 The  1K  plus  hardness  in  your  post  appears  to  be  an  artifact.  I  dont  think  the  TDS  (mineral)  will  be  so  high.  Anything  above  300  ppm  TDS  is  quite  unplesant  to  taste.  A  easy  check  will  be  to  take  a  sip  of  the  water  being  tested  followed  by  a  sip  of  RO  water.  The  contrast  will  give  you  a  rough  idea.  Further  unlike  the  device  your  tongue  can  diffrentiate  mineral  hardness  vs  organic  (mossy  taste).   Will  check  out  with  some  friends  in  the  industry  and  revert.  I  think  the  TDS  meters  use  electrical  conductivity  to  measure  TDS.  I  am  resonably  confidant  that  your  TDS  (mineral)  readings   will  have  to  be  corrected  for  the  bioload  as  the  aquarium  is  a  closed  eco-system.  Most  of  these  meters  are  calibrated  for  industrial  use  as  boiler  feed  water  checks.
 
 Shiv
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

                                                   
sandeepraghuvanshi  wrote  (View  Post):                
Just  a  word  of  caution,  we  are  discussing  hardness  of  water  based  upon  TDS  readings.  Smile  
 A  high  TDS  reading  can  be  also  because  of  dissolved  organics,  which  might  be  the  case  with  your  shrimp  tank.
 The  source  water  for  all  your  aquariums  must  be  same  so  the  hardness  must  be  same  for  all  tanks,  however  based  upon  your  water  change  frequency  the  organic  content  will  change.
 This  might  be  reason  for  a  wide  variation  of  TDS  readings  in  your  aquariums.
 Would  be  interested  to  know  the  GH,  Kh  of  your  different  tanks.                

 I  know,  I  know.  That's  why  I  said  only  TDS  in  my  reply  to  Nidhi  on  page  1  Smile  
 
 
                                                 
valluvar  wrote  (View  Post):                

 @  Nayak,
 The  1K  plus  hardness  in  your  post  appears  to  be  an  artifact.  I  dont  think  the  TDS  (mineral)  will  be  so  high.  Anything  above  300  ppm  TDS  is  quite  unplesant  to  taste.  A  easy  check  will  be  to  take  a  sip  of  the  water  being  tested  followed  by  a  sip  of  RO  water.  The  contrast  will  give  you  a  rough  idea.  Further  unlike  the  device  your  tongue  can  diffrentiate  mineral  hardness  vs  organic  (mossy  taste).   Will  check  out  with  some  friends  in  the  industry  and  revert.  I  think  the  TDS  meters  use  electrical  conductivity  to  measure  TDS.  I  am  resonably  confidant  that  your  TDS  (mineral)  readings   will  have  to  be  corrected  for  the  bioload  as  the  aquarium  is  a  closed  eco-system.  Most  of  these  meters  are  calibrated  for  industrial  use  as  boiler  feed  water  checks.
 
 Shiv
                 

 Shiv,  in  places  like  Salem  Madhu  has  a  TDS  of  850ppm  in  Rainy  season  and  as  high  as  1350ppm  in  Summer.  If  my  water  is  not  agitated  by  air  bubbles  within  three  days  the  glass  of  my  aquarium  goes  opaque   Sad   Will  wait  for  your  feedback.
 
 Here  are  the  results  of  GH,  KH,pH,  Nitrite  and  Nitrate  respectively  of  my  Tanker  water.
 
 Dry  strip,
 
 
 GH  at  120ppm
 
 
 KH  at  180ppm
 
 
 pH-8.5
 Nitrite-0ppm
 Nitrate-80ppm
 
 I  am  not  going  near  my  aquarium  water!!!!  Dog
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 Okay  to  sum  up,  your  tanker  water  is  
 
 TDS----------952  ppm
 GH-----------120     ppm  or      120/17.8=6.74  dh
 KH----------180   ppm   or      180/17.8=10  dh
 Ph--------8.5
 Nitrate-----80  ppm
 
 (1) A  TDS  of  952  ppm  implies  hard  water,  but  GH  of  120  ppm  or  6.8  dh  is  soft  water.
 (2)  KH  of  180  ppm  or  8.1  dh  does  not  seem  to  be  correct,  Gh  is  normally  higher  than  Kh.
 (3) Ph  value  of  8.5  does  not  correlate  with  this  data.
 Your  test  strips  seem  to  be  inaccurate.
 
 Nitrate  @  80  ppm  is  not  possible,  your  fishes  would  knock  out  at  this  level.
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

                                                   
sandeepraghuvanshi  wrote  (View  Post):                
Okay  to  sum  up,  your  tanker  water  is  
 
 TDS----------952  ppm
 GH-----------120     ppm  or      120/17.8=6.74  dh
 KH----------180   ppm   or      180/17.8=10  dh
 Ph--------8.5
 Nitrate-----80  ppm
 
 (1) A  TDS  of  952  ppm  implies  hard  water,  but  GH  of  120  ppm  or  6.8  dh  is  soft  water.
 (2)  KH  of  180  ppm  or  8.1  dh  does  not  seem  to  be  correct,  Gh  is  normally  higher  than  Kh.
 (3) Ph  value  of  8.5  does  not  correlate  with  this  data.
 Your  test  strips  seem  to  be  inaccurate.
 
 Nitrate  @  80  ppm  is  not  possible,  your  fishes  would  knock  out  at  this  level.                

 Sandeep,  care  to  elaborate.  The  reason  I  am  asking  is  because  you  have  already  ventured  into  this  field  and  I  am  just  starting   Very Happy  
 
 Here  is  the  reading  for  my  RO  drinking  water.
 GH  is  around  0ppm
 
 
 KH  is  around  40ppm
 
 
 pH-6.5
 Nitrite-0ppm
 Nitrate-0ppm
 
 Regards,
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 OK,  let  me  get  back  to  my  spreadsheets  and  I  will  come  back.
 One  question,  GH  and  Kh  are  both  expressed  in  terms  of  ppm  of  Caco3  or  calcium  carbonate,  I  hope  these  ppm  reflect  that.


Last edited by sandeepraghuvanshi on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 It  is  entirely  possible  that  I  might  be  totally  wrong.
 I  am  giving  my  understanding  of  the  matter
 
 GENERAL  HARDNESS  
 
    General  hardness  is  primarily  the  measure  of  calcium  (Ca++)  and
 magnesium  (Mg++)  ions  in  the  water.   Other  ions  can  contribute  to  GH
 but  their  effects  are  usually  insignificant  and  the  other  ions  are
 difficult  to  measure.   
 GH  is  commonly  expressed  in  parts  per  million  (ppm)  of  calcium
 carbonate  (CaCO3),  degrees  hardness  (dH)  or,  more  properly,  the  molar
 concentration  of  CaCO3.
 To  put  it  simply  divide  ppm  by  17.8  to  arrive  at  dh.
 
 CARBONATE  HARDNESS
 
    Carbonate  hardness  (KH)  is  the  measure  of  bicarbonate  (HCO3-)  and
 carbonate  (CO3--)  ions  in  the  water.   In  freshwater  aquariums  of
 neutral  pH,  bicarbonate  ions  predominate  and  in  saltwater  aquariums,
 carbonate  ions  begin  to  play  a  role.
 It  is  expressed  in  same  terms  as  Gh  either  in  ppm  or  dh.
 
 So  Gh  measures  total  amount  of  Calcium  carbonate  and  Magnesium  carbonate  in  the  water.
 On  the  other  hand  Kh  measures  carbonate  part  of  either  Ca  or  Mg.
 
 For  example  if  Gh  is  464  ppm  in  my  aquarium,  it  means  I  have  464  ppm  of  Caco3  in  my  aquarium.
 Now  Caclium  carbonate  consists  of  Ca  40.05%  and  Co3(carbonate)59.95%.
 Therefore  out  of  464  ppm  of  Caco3,  I  will  have  Co3  as  278  ppm  (464  X  59.95%).
 Hence  my  carbonate  hardness  or  Kh  will  be  278  ppm.
 
 Now  these  calculation  were  valid  in  water  parameters  of  three  cities  that  I  tested,  Lucknow,  Jamnagar,  Mathura.
 In  all  of  these  KH  was  always  less  than  GH  because  of  above  reason.
 Hence  I  suspected  that  your  test  results  were  wrong,  but  when  you  posted  results  of  Ro  water,  it  got  me  thinking.
 If  the  test  results  are  right  it  means  that  you  are  getting   carbonates  from  compounds  other  than  MgCo3  and  Caco3.
 Upon  further  search  I  found  out  there  are  some  areas  where  water  contains  Sodium  bicarbonate  and  Potassium  bicarbonate.  Now  both  these  compounds  will  increase  Kh  of  water  without  increasing  GH  of  water.
 
 This  might  be  one  of  the  reasons  for  these  readings.
 I  will  correlate  this  further  with  TDS  readings  tomorrow.
 Meanwhile  let  me  know  if  you  can  find  out  either  Na  or  potassium   levels  in  your  water.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:44 am Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 TDS,  pH,  gH  and  anything  &  everything  related  to  it  is  a  pretty  dynamic  value.   So  IMO,  it  ain't  wise  to  stick  to  tables  &  rules  there.   It  is  true  that  some  places  TDS  goes  into  four  digit  figures.   I've  seen  it  and  our  folks  from  chennai  know  all  about  'liquid  rock'.   It's  only  that  it  changes  drastically  from  time  to  time.   The  fact  is,  we  can't  go  with  mere  chemical  equations  here.   With  so  much  of  organic  content  inside  the  tank  how  would  we  even  think  about  balancing  those  equations.   Fortunately,  fishes  can  tolerate  a  wide  range  of  parameters.   Well  for  me,  I've  had  discus  grow  to  full  size  in  'liquid  rock'.   If  you  wanna  breed  them  then  its  a  whole  different  story  altogether.   Fish  poop  does  tend  to  acidify  water  to  a  certain  extend  and  DO  to  a  great  extend  not  to  mention  the  temperature  &  the  volume  of  vaporized  water.   You  can  test  it  yourself.   Take  two  mugs  of  water  from  the  same  source  at  the  same  time.   Check  all  the  parameters.   Sqeeze  your  sponge  filter  in  one  of  the  mugs  let  it  be  there  for  a  few  hours  &  then  check  it.   You  will  have  sparrows  &  bells  around  your  head.   Well  I  had  it  when  i  tried.   Leave  it  for  a  day  and  check  again.   Aerate  it  for  a  few  hours  &  check  it  again.   You  can  see  it  for  yourself.
 And  precisely  nitrates  can  go  above  80  ppm  and  still  fishes  can  live  happily.   Not  only  in  home  aquaria  even  in  the  wild.   Me  &  Nayak  have  walked  in  water@32C  with  almost  1/2  feet  of  debris  bubbling  &  stinking  with  Hydrogen  sulphide  and  a  group  of  canarensis  swimming  happily  in  it.
 I  worry  much  more  about  temperature  than  pH,  TDS  and  all  other  parameters  attached  to  it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 Your  water  is  not  hard  water,  it  seems  to  be  treated  water,  that  might  explain  high  TDS  but  low  GH.
 It  is  hard  to  tell  without  a  full  analysis  of  water,  Sodium,  sulphates  might  be  high  in  your  water.
 The  only  problem  that  I  see  is  high  nitrates  in  your  water.
 I  read  a  report  on  underground  water  analysis  in  Bangalore  area,  it  seems  nitrates  are  pretty  high  .
 However  if  you  have  been  using  this  water  for  a  longish  time  your  fish  might  have  become  accustomed  to  them  as  Madhu  has  rightly  pointed  out.
 
 You  can  check  out  this  report.
 
 http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/GWQualityIntro.pdf
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nikhilsood1
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 Nayak  got  my  water  checked  today  actually  tested  two  samples,  one  is  water  straight  from  the  tap  and  the  second  from  a  tank  that  had  Catappa  leaves  in  it  for  a  day.  Tap  water  -  410-420TDS  &  Catappa  water  -  200-210  TDS.  So  I  think  I  need  to  make  my  blackwater  extract  for  the  summer.
 
 Madhu  a  question  for  you.  If  I  am  getting  wild  caught  fish  from  India.  You  think  its  better  to  get  them  first  into  tanks  with  the  higher  TDS  and  then  add  the  Catappa  to  lower  it  slowly?  
 
 Regards
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 The  above  three  posts  are  really  tough.
 
 I  have  been  trying  since  yesterday  night  and  am  having  trouble  formulating  my  reply  Chuckle  
 
 I  need  some  more  time....  for,
 1)  Why  do  I  need  to  test  my  aquarium  water.
 2)  Is  my  KH  really  more  than  my  GH,  and  what  might  be  causing  it.
 3)  Why  do  I  have  80ppm  Nitrate.
 4)  Why  is  my  TDS  different  in  different  aquariums
 
 And  much  more.  Till  then  I  would  really  appreciate  any  more  feedback  from  IAH  members  who  have  experience  in  water  Chemistry  testing.
 In  the  meantime,  I  will  test  another  couple  of  aquariums  for  GH,  KH,  pH,  Nitrite  and  Nitrate.
 
 Regards,
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rasikanayak
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 Nikhil,
 
 Sorry  did  not  see  your  post.  So  Cauvery  water  is  400  odd  ppm.  And  IAL  is  bringing  down  your  TDS?  How  so?
 I  thought  they  only  reduced  pH.
 
 Regards,
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nikhilsood1
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

 I  would  say  mine  is  a  mix  of  Borewell  &  Cauvery  so  it  comes  at  400,  so  dont  know  know  how  much  pure  Cauvery  comes  in  at.  The  new  place  doesn't  have  a  dedicated  Cauvery  supply.  
 
 I  also  never  knew  it  reduced  hardness  but  it  was  right  before  my  eyes.  Maybe  something  you  can  give  a  shot.  BTW  have  collected  Catappa  leaves  from  3-4  places  and  somehow  they  are  just  not  releasing  any  tannins.  So  this  water  that  was  checked  was  not  stained  brown  at  all.
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

                                                   
rasikanayak  wrote  (View  Post):                
The  above  three  posts  are  really  tough.
 
 I  have  been  trying  since  yesterday  night  and  am  having  trouble  formulating  my  reply  Chuckle  
 
 I  need  some  more  time....  for,
 1)  Why  do  I  need  to  test  my  aquarium  water.                

 Good  question,  Very Happy  ,  only  you  can  answer
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                

 2)  Is  my  KH  really  more  than  my  GH,  and  what  might  be  causing  it.                

 Your  test  strips  are  not  faulty  the  readings  for  Ro  water  are  proving  it.
 So  your  tanker  water  is  getting  excess  carbonates  from  somewhere  other  than  usual  Mg  &  ca  carbonates.
   if  possible  try  and  ask  your  tanker  guy,  if  he  is  treating  water  with  anything
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                

 3)  Why  do  I  have  80ppm  Nitrate.                  

 I  have  given  you  the  link  which  gives  the  testing  of  ground  water  in  bangalore.
 The  ground  water  was  tested  with  approx  900  samples  which  contained  nitrate  levels  from  50  ppm  to  750  ppm.
 These  are  highly  polluted  water  and  it  is  a  surprise,  nitrate  levels  above  45  ppm  are  not  considered  for  drinking  as  per  ISO  standards
 
 
 
                                                 
Quote:                

 4)  Why  is  my  TDS  different  in  different  aquariums                

 
 TDS  is  a  measure  of  charged  ions  in  the  water,  different  activities  in  aquariums  will  change  number  of  ions  in  water.
 For  example  a  tank  with  high  water  changes  will  have  a  TDS  level  closer  to  source  water,  one  with  only  top  ups  will  have  higher  TDS.
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madhu_ulysses
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: My new Interest, Water chemistry control. Reply with quote

                                                   
nikhilsood1  wrote  (View  Post):                

 Madhu  a  question  for  you.  If  I  am  getting  wild  caught  fish  from  India.  You  think  its  better  to  get  them  first  into  tanks  with  the  higher  TDS  and  then  add  the  Catappa  to  lower  it  slowly?  
 Regards                

 
 Nikhil,  if  you  have  your  fish  adapted  to  hard  water  then  you  probably  don't  need  Catappa  leaf  until  &  unless  you  try  to  breed  them.   I  have  never  had  problem  having  hill  stream  loaches  &  cats  in  my  well  water.   The  only  thing  I  do  is  do  a  slow  transfer  to  my  tap  water  from  the  pack.   We  always  pack  some  extra  biotope  water.   If  they  cross  the  crucial  first  week  &  start  eating,  then  you  probably  are  outta  trouble.   I  have  never  seen  any  sign  of  stress  when  having  wilds  in  hard  water.   Infact  they  display  the  close  to  nature  colors  in  hard  water  as  well.
 And  when  talking  about  Catappa  leaf,  I  don't  dump  in  the  leaves.   Instead  i  boil  the  leaves  and  have  a  concentrated  black  water  extract  and  pour  it  in.
 
 All  the  below  guys  are/were  in  liquid  rock:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 If  they  are  displaying  such  colors  in  hard  water,  I  wouldn't  say  they  are  stressed.
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