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http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/ :: View topic - CO2 - ph balance
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CO2 - ph balance

 
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brojo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 I  have  recently  started  yeast-sugar  based  CO2  injection  in  my  planted  tank  that  has  about  3  watts  per  gallon  light,  with  dense  planting.  The  aquarium  size  is  2.5x1.5  feet  with  a  depth  of  2  feet.  
 As  far  as  I  understand  when  CO2  level  rises  due  to  artificial  injection  it  obviously  affects  the  Ph  factor  and  in  fact  lowers  it,  therefore  if  I  try  to  balance  the  Ph  factor  by  putting  some  chemical  (like  lime?)  will  it  deplete/lower  the  level  of  dissolved  CO2  in  my  tank?
 I  am  asking  because  yesterday  I  introduced  two  small  fish  (siamese  algae  eaters)  and  they  obviously  didn't  like  the  water  and  had  their  belly  up  in  virtually  no  time.  After  observing  them  struggling  to  breathe  I  took  them  out  and  kept  them  in  another  tank  that  doesn't  have  any  artificial  CO2  injection  and  they  recovered  in  virtually  no  time.  I  suspect  the  mismatch  of  Ph  factor  to  be  the  only  culprit.
 So  my  question  again  is,  if  I  am  raising  CO2  in  my  tank  and  at  the  same  time  doing  some  chemical  treatment  to  keep  the  Ph  factor  same  will  it  nullify  the  extra  CO2?  In  that  case  it  is  quite  pointless  to  carry  out  the  entire  exercise  of  injecting  CO2  in  the  first  place.  
 If  the  answer  is  no,  will  someone  please  suggest  as  to  how  to  keep  the  Ph  factor  stable  alongwith  extra  CO2?
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trevor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 How  do  you  guess  that  your  PH  has  changed  so  drastically  after  adding  DIY  Co2.  Anything  could  have  entered  the  water  including  your  yeast  solution  if  not  kept  properly.  You  have  not  mentioned  what  exactly  was  the  PH  of  your  water  before  and  now  after  adding  your  DIY  Co2.  Smile
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Rana
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 Sudipto
 
 The  Co2  solubility  essentially  depends  on  the  bicarbonate  alkalinity   and  pH  of  water.  You  my  try  whatever,  you  can  not  dissove  more  CO2  given  a  set  of  water  parameter  unless  you  increase  the  partial  pressure.
 
 More  alkalinity,  more  CO2  you  can  dissolve  without  affecting  the  pH  much.
 
 You  may  give  me  one  bottle  of  your  water  sample,  I  can  arrange  a  test  and  find  out  what  is  the  hardness,  alkalinity  and  pH  of  your  make  up  water.  And  indirectly  tell  you  what  could  be  the  maximum  CO2  dissolved  in  your  aquarium.
 
 However,  please  look  into  other  areas,  toxins  /organics  or  temperature  to  find  out  reason  for  this  incidence.  Is  there  any  other  fish  in  your  aquarium  ?  
 
 Regards
 
 Rana
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brojo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 I  am  going  to  your  house  this  Saturday  evening  or  Sunday  morning  Rana  (with  that  jerrycan).  And  no  Trevor  I  don't  have  any  readings.  I  just  wanted  to  understand  the  inter-relation  between  CO2  and  Ph  and  the  question  was  if  CO2  addition  lowers  Ph  does  Ph  increment  lower  CO2?  I  wouldn't  do  anything  drastic  with  the  chemistry  of  water  without  proper  tests.  And  the  yeast  solution  hasn't  gone  in.  
 But  I  am  more  than  certain  the  Ph  in  my  tank  was  quite  different  from  the  tank  from  where  the  fish  came.  
 But  I  was  most  impressed  and  happy  at  the  pace  with  which  they  recovered  after  getting  the  "right"  water.
 Sudipto
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 Hi
 Carbon  di  oxide  disolves  in  water  to  form  carbonic  acid  and  it  lowers  ph.  However  in  a  heavily  planted  tank  like  yours  with  lots  of  light  the  plants  will  take  up  CO2  and  no  excess  Co2  will  be  left  to  affect  ph.
 I  doubt  if  a  DIY  Co2  setup  will  alter  ph  on  a  very  significant  basis.
 It  might  be  that  oxygen  in  your  tank  is  on  a  lower  side.  remember  that  plants  also  use  oxygen  for  respriation.  During  daytime  they  also  produce  oxygen  during  photosyentheis,  but  during  night  they  comptete  with  fishes  for  oxygen.  Did  your  fishes  face  problem  during  morning.
 When  you  put  your  fish  in  fresh  water,  they  got  enough  oxygen.
 Some  more  details  of  your  tank  are  required,  do  you  have  filter?
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brojo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 Sandeep  
 
 No  filter  yet.  I  introduced  the  fish  in  the  afternoon.  I  can  see  some  of  my  vals  giving  out  oxygen  in  very  fine  streams,  so  that  should  not  be  a  problem.  I  just  think  that  the  water  in  the  tank  was  different  from  the  tank  they  came  from  and  being  really  small  they  couldn't  take  the  abrupt  change.  As  you  say  in  another  posting,  even  a  point  one  difference  in  Ph  factor  is  a  lot  of  difference.  And  I  am  convinced  that  the  water  in  my  other  tank  where  I  subsequently  put  them  to  almost  immediate  effect  was  more  or  less  chemically  the  same  as  the  water  in  the  LFS  tank.  This  other  tank  has  a  heavy  load  of  fish  and  plants  as  well.  
 However,  my  original  question  is  still  unanswered  -  let  me  put  it  this  way.  If  the  Ph  in  water  goes  up  due  to  some  chemical,  does  it  mean  the  amount  of  dissolved  CO2  in  the  water  goes  down?  The  reverse  proposition  is  true  we  all  know  (that  is,  Ph  goes  down  if  CO2  goes  up).  I  hope  I  am  not  sounding  like  too  much  of  a  nag.
 Regards
 Sudipto
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

                                                   
brojo  wrote  (View  Post):                
However,  my  original  question  is  still  unanswered  -  let  me  put  it  this  way.  If  the  Ph  in  water  goes  up  due  to  some  chemical,  does  it  mean  the  amount  of  dissolved  CO2  in  the  water  goes  down?  The  reverse  proposition  is  true  we  all  know  (that  is,  Ph  goes  down  if  CO2  goes  up).  I  hope  I  am  not  sounding  like  too  much  of  a  nag.
 Regards
 Sudipto                

 No,  ph  is  not  only  dependent  on  Co2  alone.  any  chemical  reaction  which  changes  acidic/  alkanality  of  water  will  cause  ph  up  or  down.  Co2  in  not  he  only  deciding  factor.  Even  photosyenthesis  affects  ph.  In  an  aquarium  if  ph  goes  up  or  down  does  not  nescerraily  mean  that  Co2  has  gone  up  or  down.
 From  your  reply  it  seems  that  the  fish  was  transferred  from  one  tank  to  another,  every  tank  will  have  unique  water  parameters.
 That  is  why  acclimatizing  the  fish  is  very  essential.
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brojo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 Thanks  Sandeep.  My  question  is  answered  and  now  I  know  while  CO2  addition  will  lower  Ph  factor,  the  reverse  is  not  necessarily  true.  I  have  another  suspicion  regarding  what  could  have  been  wrong  with  the  tank  -  it  is  quite  possible  that  the  nitrogen  cycle  in  the  tank  is  still  not  complete.  I  am  going  to  introduce  a  few  black  mollies  in  the  tank  today.  The  tank  was  set  up  more  than  two  weeks  ago.  Before  all  this  started  there  was  one  female  betta  in  the  tank  and  it  was  very  obvious  that  she  loved  the  tank.  But  bettas  breathe  in  a  different  way  from  other  fish  so  it  may  not  be  a  good  indicator  of  water  quality.
 Sudipto
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sandeepraghuvanshi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: CO2 - ph balance Reply with quote

 Sudipto
 Filter  is  required  in  every  aquarium.  It  is  essential  for  water  filteration  as  well  as  water  movement  in  tank.
 Level  of  oxygen  in  a  tank  has  got  nothing  to  do  with  nitrification.  Nitrification  deals  with  generation  of  ammonia,  nitrites  &  nitrates.
 In  a  planted  tank  nitrogen  cycle  might  not  be  an  issue,  as  all  ammonia  generated  by  fishes  will  be  taken  up  by  plants.  In  fact  it  is  often  said  that  nitrogen  cycle  will  not  even  start  in  a  well  planted  tank.
 I  thing  the  problem  might  be  with  aclimatizing  the  fish.
 When  you  buy  a  fish  float  the  bag  in  aquarium,  this  will  allow  fish  to  slowely  get  accostomed  to  aquarium  temp.  After  20  min  put  a  cup  of  aquarium  water  in  bag,  this  will  get  them  accostomed  to  ph  of  your  tankwater.  After  15  mins  gently  openthe  fish  and  let  fish  swim  out.
 It  is  preferably  to  put  the  fish  in  a  quarantine  tank,  this  will  not  upset  yout  main  tank.
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