Joined: Aug 31, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Dear friends.
I joined your community from Norway on the other side of the planet earth about a year ago, and I am looking in from time to time and find it very interesting.
The first reason to join in is that my definite favourite fish is the beautiful Puntius denesonii.
I now have 17 if them, 9 x 4†and 8 x 2†size. But there is very little new information about them that I can find during the last 1 – 2 years.
I have heard that it has been beaded in the Far East, but I have never managed to get it verified.
What kind of methods and conditions do they eventually use?
Does anyone know who and where? Any links?
As I am so much fascinated in this barb I would also gladly hear from you specialist from the right side of the word, what tank mates from Kerala will be most recommended?
And as some of you have been out catching them yourself, can you tell me what water values and condition there was actually where you found them?
And does anyone know when they are breeding in their normal environment?
During dry periods or during rain periods?
What time of the year?
And what will eventually the normal water temperature be at this time?
OK, it was a lot of questions, but I hope some of you can answer some of it and may be others other things.
Looking forwards to hearing from you
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 2450 Location: Salem, TN
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
If you are trying to breed'em, you can try it with massive water changes & lot of live food when there's a drop in temp also can dump in a lot of plants on one side of the tank with soft water. Have been trying for a while, but nothing yet.
Joined: Aug 31, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Status: Offline
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Hello Madan, nice hearing from the moderator right away on my first contact.
I read your article shortly after it was posted first time; I have read it in the mean time, and again today.
It was a good description of a nice trip, but you have probably not been on the very best places at the very best time. But all water values have been noted.
As P. denesonii is distributed w.w. in fairly large numbers, all though relative, I am a bit surprised that the right collection places have not yet been officially known, or where and how they are breading them.
And as I said, I haven’t find much new information during the last two years
And Hi Madhu,
I can very much agree on your proposed method, as it in a way simulates the monsoon conditions, and it works well for a lot of other sp. But nobody has yet succeeded with the denesonii. Strange. There has to be another missing parameter which probably only can be found in the area where they really catch a lot of them.
And the adults should then probably be found a few weeks ahead of the monsoon and the juveniles in September/ October.
I also hope somebody have some time to answer my other questions.
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 2450 Location: Salem, TN
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Hi Jon,
On the trip we went to the right place, but just not at the right time. There were rains and more than that, only a few days before we made the trip, was a reservoir opened, so couldn't find much populations in potential niches.
Joined: Jun 29, 2003 Posts: 7084 Location: Bengaluru, India
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Hello Jon,
We haven't been to visit the place after that single visit due to various factors.
Yes, P. denisonii is found in many other places, collectors get them by the thousands, but for commercial reasons it's all a closely guarded secret, and not revealed.
It's with very great difficulty we managed to find the ONE single location on our trip, and the location we eventually found after it had been wiped clean a few hours earlier by commercial fishermen.
There was a thread in www.petforum.com a year ago, where in there was a mention of a person succeeding in getting them to lay eggs in a community aquarium. If I remember right it was in the same thread that discussed successful breeding of the E. canarensis in an aquarium for the first time.
Let me search petforum and post the link.
In case anyone remembers the thread please post the link here.
Joined: Aug 31, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Great and quick.
But I find it strange that someone can catch great quantity in India and export them W.W. without anyone knowing what is going on. It is probably me not understanding how big India actually is.
I have hared about this Tim earlier and also people in Germany with similar stories, but as sure as I have seen no exact specification or evidence have been shown.
I also read about a lab. in Germany, testing a whole lot of denesoniis finding that they were all males. But here to, no written articles or evidence.
But I believe that the denisoniis are in more of the 44 registered rivers in Kerala, and one day also we hobbyist will get the information and evidence we need.
Are there many members here keeping denisoniis in their tanks?
Jon in Norway
Joined: Jun 29, 2003 Posts: 7084 Location: Bengaluru, India
Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Yes Jon, it is a fact. This fish commands such high prices in the world market, the exporters make a killing.
The poor rural fisherman who collects them in the wild and gets in these to the middleman ( the guy who collects a lot of them before shipping them to an exporter in India) - is paid not more than 10 cents (US) per fish if he is lucky. They retail for about $2 a piece in India, and $ 40 in the US and Europe?
I have seen 5000+ of these fish at a time with a middleman in Bangalore before these fish were shipped to Calcutta for their journey beyond India.
And since these fish have not been commercially bred elsewhere with any great degree of success, keeping the collection location under wraps is essential to protect one's source.
We were taken to the location only after we were able to convince the local fishermen, that we had no commercial interest, we were only interested in seeing the fish in the wild, and a lot of name dropping of their clients.
No amount of probing in Bangalore with the receiver of this fish gave us an exact location. It was all a vague indication that they would be "found around here and look for sandy bottom where the river widens etc.," - easier said than done.
In fact it was late in the night on the first day of the trip, that the receptionist at the hotel we were staying guided us to a couple of people who might know of these fish.
After that it was a drive to Irrity, enquiring at the only LFS there who had a few P. denisonii in his tank, this led us to a family of fishermen (at the tea shack across the bridge) who are known to collect this fish and supply a few fish to the LFS and send the rest over to Bangalore by Bus. These rivers I am told are reserved for the locals to fish, outsiders are not allowed, I don't know how far this is true or legal, but it was part of the impediments we faced.
Finding these fishermen was another chore, but once we found them it took all of our skills convincing them, before they were willing to help us. All they needed to say was - "We've never seen this fish" and we were more or less doomed.
Under the circumstances, 2 days was too short a trip to go looking for this fish, it will require a longer trip spread out over atleast a week to check out the various other locations they are reported from.
Joined: Mar 27, 2005 Posts: 90 Location: bangalore
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
breeding denisonii is a hard task as the female tend to die in captivity and the ph is of 6.6 at the river where they breed and other thing is they travel upstream during the first spell of rain same like solomons and they scatter eggs in a muddy place where there is lot of fallen leaves and move down the best time to breed is the first spell of rain and another major factor to be considered is to keep the female alive, Best of luck
Joined: Mar 27, 2005 Posts: 90 Location: bangalore
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
denisonii is also available ina part of tamilnadu bordering kerala, people question me the answer is my friend is having a farm over there and next to his farm is a river forgot the name spells Peri somthing I have myself caught more than hundreds and left them back as I have to travel back to Bangalore and didn't had any source to bring them. All the information collected is by the local people know abouts
Joined: Aug 31, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Hi Madan and Manju,
Dear friends,
First comment to Madan:
Yes, I know this rout from fishing boy to the final shop. It is similar as from south America, Myanmar and everywhere. But actually I bought my latest 8 denesoniis here in Norway at 11 USD each, and I know it was 6 USD in to that specific shop. That's why I suspect hormone breed from somewhere in the east, as we have heard about other sp.
But of cause I fully understand the reason to protect the different catching places. And the people living in the areas are probably very much dependent of their fishing. Keep commercial outsiders away. But a one week trip for honest hobby aquarist would have been very interesting. Wish I could afford to take a trip one day.
And manju;
You really come up with interesting information, and this is just what I like, step by step to find all possible reasons for the difficulties.
Do you have any clou why the females are dying? pH 6,6 is possible to achieve. Does it also means you can see the difference of male and female in India? Or is it just the roundness of the females?
Kerala is a fairly large area, and I believe it is natural that the denesoniis are also outside Kerala, even if it is best known from here.
The fish will for some reasons go upstream just before the first rain spell, and probably stay there and feed well on the nutrients coursed by the rain spell, and then spawn in this area. Do you know what the water temp will be just before and after the rain spill? There is a considerable temp drop I believe, and it is probably up in the hills. May be they spawn at temps down to 14 -15 deg C???
You also say they scatter eggs in a muddy place. Interesting, all though the denesoniis are known to need very clean, very good oxygenated and very low conductivity water. What about pH change during the natural water change?
Do you know anything specific they are feeding on in the spawning period?
Sorry for asking so many questions, but I am just so very interested.
Joined: Mar 27, 2005 Posts: 90 Location: bangalore
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
a) female tend to be lighter coloured than males and while mating season the female tends to be a little agressive and will be plump.
b) temp what i have recorded is slightly high to what you said the temp was around 25deg and the place where they have scattered eggs was a point where there was less current slightly away from the main stream
c) at the same time indian gar, danios breed and seen them with denisonii, lots of shrimp fries were available and due to rain there was lot of daphnia collected in small rocks and will be shifted when it rains
d) ph at that place was 6.6 but moving further i think they will be around 7.0 to 7.2
best of luck for your project, I am helphing out on this matter is cause I want denisonii to be tank bred and atleast the wild will be left safe, the count of denisonii has dropped by a margin of 85% according to the survey conducted
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Any news about Puntius denesonii?
Hi everybody:)
Like Josti I also seek information on these magnificent fish, and I happen to come from Norway to. Currently I keep 11 young ones and 9 adults in a 720liter planted tank. I have only had them for a short while, and will start eksperimenting with them after a couple of months time.
When is the raining season in this part of India?
By the way.... This is a very nice and friendly forum.. Thank you
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